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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yelena Dembo on Chess.com (Read 99710 times)
ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #102 - 09/23/10 at 03:46:32
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O where would we be without these bastions of justice to save humanity from playing too accurately in correspondence chess?
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #101 - 09/23/10 at 03:01:18
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Wow Markovich, this is indeed smart! So, if I want to cheat, all I have to do is make one single move that is not the top choice of the engine. Great! Could you please try to apply your method on ICC? And then argue with the admins there "why did I get a (C) behind my name?".

At move 35 a human can see that Black has a won game and should simplify as much as possible (thus exchanging queens). I don't think that, in my original analysis, I included the statistics for moves after 34. 

The method is certainly replicable: just get yourself an engine and start analyzing games! Shall I make a drawing for you to understand or you admit that you are a fool? To use your very friendly language.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #100 - 09/23/10 at 02:09:46
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Markovich wrote on 09/23/10 at 02:03:45:

Concerning Dembo's score, its plausibility depends on the strength of her opponents, doesn't it?


Sure, if she's beating up on patzers the vast majority of the time. I have no clue who she has been playing, but it's still a funny score.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #99 - 09/23/10 at 02:03:45
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BPaulsen wrote on 09/23/10 at 01:58:11:
Instead of going through with the nonsense of a "known cheaters" list they should just reserve the right to ban players they suspect of cheating.

It hardly matters how they decide the individual is cheating as far as I'm concerned, nor do they have to have some fail-safe method of doing so.



I fully agree.  The whole problem is that they presume to publish the names of so-called "known cheaters."

Concerning Dembo's score, its plausibility depends on the strength of her opponents, doesn't it?
  

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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #98 - 09/23/10 at 01:58:11
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Instead of going through with the nonsense of a "known cheaters" list they should just reserve the right to ban players they suspect of cheating.

It hardly matters how they decide the individual is cheating as far as I'm concerned, nor do they have to have some fail-safe method of doing so. Just do away with the list, and all's good.

I did get a good laugh out of Dembo's +140 -0 =15 score.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #97 - 09/23/10 at 01:43:33
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Zygalski wrote on 09/22/10 at 18:27:19:
I was one of the 4 analysts who fairly recently looked at 20 of WGM Yelena Dembo's chess.com games.
These games were objectively chosen (insomuch as is possible) in that they were the then most recently completed games vs 2200+ rated chess.com opponents.  All the games had 35 or more moves.
I found only 18 games that fulfilled this criteria, so I then selected the 2 most recently completed games which were vs near-2200 rateds which also had 35+ moves.

I would like to point-out that there seems to be a commonly held misconception that chess.com closed Yelena's account purely on the back of top 3 or top 4 engine match up results.  This simply is not the case - the t3/t4 analysis was used by a group of players simply to suggest members who were possible engine-users.  

As a result of engine match up analysis of the 20 games by 4 separate analysts using 4 different systems & 3 different engines, full ply-by-ply analysis for the games was forwarded to site staff for them to peruse.

Chess.com staff have refused to reveal what methodology they use, but I would assume that if you're looking for possible engine users, you would probably look at the frequency of how their moves match an engine's once the game in question goes out of a multi-million games database.
Either that, or you'd use average error/blundercheck analysis, for which I personally have no data.

You would then need a set of control data, benchmarks of how the highest quality players can perform in regards to engine match up, both pre-computer era CC long time control World Champion finalists & otb Super GM's, where you are pretty certain no powerful engines were used.  Logically then you would look for any consistency within the benchmarks relating to upper-end thresholds.
Either that consistency seems to exist or it doesn't.
Let me tell you know that using a 3000-3200+ Elo rated engine on a reasonably powerful pc using 30 second per-ply infinite analysis, there does indeed seem to be a consistency at the extreme upper end for the unassisted players.

The benchmarks I tested strongly suggest an extreme upper limit of engine-like play in 15-20+ games with minimum of around 500 non-database moves of 
Top 1 Match: 60%
Top 2 Match: 75%
Top 3 Match: 85% (all 3 figures =)

I won't list my personal benchmark tests here, but they have been posted on chess.com.
Other analysts have posted their own, and they are also consistent with my findings.

I was taught top 3 match up methodology by a FIDE 2300 rated, who has been a games mod on a site other than chess.com for several years.
He also said that my benchmarks (which were independently generated) were "exactly what I'd expect you to find".

Now for the controversial bit!

As in everything in life, you have to make compromises.
Ideally, you'd analyse every single pre-computer CC match (with a 400+ rolled back non-database sample size) for every single player who's ever played the game.  You'd ideally also do the same for every otb Super GM.
Ideally, you'd use every single strong engine available to analyse these many thousands of games, presumably analysing at a very slow pace.
You'd also like to have many different systems, because some could possibly give quite different results to others.
So, you spend the next 50 or so years creating the benchmarks... 
I'm sure you can see that you need to balance practicality with reliability.  There will be some compromise!

The next controversial point is that many analysts use a +5% buffer on each of the t3 upper-end threshold stats.
So, now you have
Top 1 Match: 65%
Top 2 Match: 80%
Top 3 Match: 90% (all 3 figures =)

Does this mean that anyone whose games/opponents fulfil the selection criteria is 100% guilty of engine use?
No - of course not!
What it means is that in non-database moves in many objectively chose games over time, the player has out-performed all the benchmarks tested so far by quite some margin.
Often the match up results returned are significantly higher than these new (admittedly seemingly rather arbitrary) thresholds.
This can never be an exact science & as I say, to remain at all practical you must make at least some compromises.

I was the analyst who returned the following stats for 20 of Dembo's games' non-database moves:

Deep Rybka 3 x64 Hash:256 Time:30s Depth:12-20ply

AMD Phenom x 4 2.30Ghz 4GB DDR2 RAM

YelenaDembo (Games: 20)
Top 1 Match: 530/723 ( 73.3% )
Top 2 Match: 638/723 ( 88.2% )
Top 3 Match: 676/723 ( 93.5% )
Top 4 Match: 698/723 ( 96.5% )

You can draw your own conclusions as to why Yelena's match up rate was so high when the average opponent was rated about chess.com 2500 or so.

I've been doing this analysis for about 3 years now, both creating benchmarks & analysing/submitting evidence on suspects.
Many suspects I've analysed & submitted on have had lower match up rates than those I found for WGM Dembo, but have resulted in the players in question being removed from the site(s).

You can never say that WGM Dembo cheated in those games, simply that she played incredibly error-free, engine-like chess.
WGM Dembo also had a chess.com record of 
p = 155
w = 140
d = 15
l = 0 
against, no doubt, some suspected engine users, unless you believe that the top 0.1% highest rated on chess.com are all there as a result of not using engines!

Another thing that's been banded-around as a means to discredit this approach is why were 20 of Dembo's recent otb games which met the selection criteria analysed.  Well, we just wanted to check that Yelena didn't have a particularly engine-like game when unassisted.  That was all.  Her results were far lower than the top-end unassisted benchmarks, so we felt we had at least some basis to rule out the fact that Dembo has a particluarly engine-like unassisted style.
If she was at the very top of the 60/75/85 benchmarks mentioned earlier when playing otb, it would be rational to expect her to play more top engine moves when playing long t/c in online chess.  This would discredit benchmark thresholds. 

Finally, I do hope you realise I'm not frothing at the mouth, hoping all users I analyse are cheats! It's a nice feeling when results come back well below the thresholds, makes you realise there are some good folk out there at or near the top of their game.


That really is a load of numerical mumbo-jumbo.  Do you, or does anyone else at chess.com, understand that this is a statistical problem?  You don't seem to.

What is the data?  What is the model?  What are the statistics?  What are the tests?  
I keep asking these questions, and I receive no answer.

It is simply the work of ignorami to point to a set of arbitrary numbers and say, "There, you see?"  That's all I have seen so far, and it stinks.

You simply must understand that this is a statistical problem, or admit that you are a fool.

You don't have an objective, replicable method, do you get that?  All you have is a mishmash of verbiage, boiled potatoes and overcooked broccoli, topped off with some numerical dressing, and concluding with "There, you see?"

Just for example, what is the exact provenance of the percentages that you allege are the "extreme upper limit of engine-line play in 15-20 games?"  What does "extreme upper limit" mean?  What percentile of a distribution is that?  What statistic is that?  What the hell is that, other than mumbo-jumbo?

Let me ask you this also:  do you agree that in Dembo's game with kingboy, 34...f5 is a notably stronger move than Dembo's 34...Nf2?  I mean, notably?  So how does that square with the account that Dembo is cheating?  She cheats, but sometimes she forgets to cheat?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #96 - 09/22/10 at 16:49:07
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In the past, correspondence chess was an investment. Every move cost a postage stamp. Now, it's easy for everyone to play correspondence because of the internet. This means that far more players of all abilities are giving it a try. Of course there will be more strong players today than in previous generations.

That does not denigrate the accomplishments of Berliner or Estrin or any of the other great CC players. But without drogo's scepticism, it does suggest that CC players today are probably much stronger as a group than in the past.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #95 - 09/22/10 at 14:17:55
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TalJechin: I don't have time now, I did check only one move you say, move nr. 9. At depth 17 or 18 the difference between the move Yelena played and Bb2 is more than half a pawn. I really don't think that Shredder offers such a different evaluation.

19 -0.39 9.... e6 10.Bc7 Qe8 11.Nc3 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Bxc3+ 13.Kf1 Bxa1 14.Qxa1 Nxc5 15.Bd6 b6 16.Bxf8 Qxf8 17.h4 h5 18.Rg1 Qe7 19.Qb2 Bb7 20.g4 
2 19 +0.16 9.... Bxb2 10.O-O Ndxc5 11.Bc7 Qd7 12.Rb1 Nc3 13.Nxc3 Bxc3 14.Be5 Qxd1 15.Rfxd1 Bxe5 16.Nxe5 Bf5 17.Nd3 Bxd3 18.cxd3 b6 19.d4 Ne4 20.Bf3 Nc3 21.Bxa8 

The evaluation seem to remain relatively unchanged at higher depths. At ply 24 it is 9...e6 (-0.44), ...Bb2 (-0.05).

As for Anand-Topalov playing computer-like chess. The mistakes they made were also computer-like. At one point Anand missed a winning chance, one line that engines found almost instantly. Anand didn't find it and he was not in time trouble. I'll post the game later on.

Before computers people were playing CC games which regularly took over an year to complete. Yet, their games are filled with inaccuracies and even mistakes, even for those who were CC world champions. Maybe in the past only very weak players played CC, that would be an explanation.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #94 - 09/22/10 at 13:55:49
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drogo:
Quote:
A model game you followed up to a point will only give you a general plan to continue; it won't give you the optimal moves at each and every point. Yelena Dembo seem to consistently chose the optimal move. Even when many candidate moves were available, even when the differences between them were several centipawns, she always chose the best move. 


That's what you say, didn't you read this from page 5?
Markovich wrote on 09/21/10 at 14:40:54:


Further my results for kingboy-Dembo, obtained with DeepShredder 12, differ considerably from yours.  I have Dembo playing suboptimally at moves 9 (Bxb2 was better), 13 (Nc3 was better), 15 (Qe7 was better), 18 (Ne6 was better). 20 (Bc2 was better), 28 (Bxf3 was better), and 34 (f5, Qb1 and Ng5 were better).  In the latter case there is a pretty big difference between 34...f5! and Dembo's move.

So if we have Dembo playing any obviously suboptimal moves at all in this supposedly very convincing game, what is your account of her conduct?  That she was a ruthless cheater who sometimes forgot to cheat?  Isn't it much more likely that this IM simply played strong moves and sometimes faltered?

Furthermore, this is a highly tactical game.  There are many cases where the move played by Dembo is the only one that a strong human being would consider (moves 10, 11, 12, 14, 17, 24, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 and 35).  So this "evidence" is really quite insubstantial.



Quote:
OK, she might play naturally like computers because she's training with them. But what happens with her OTB play, when she has a totally different style, full of mistakes compared to the perfection she achieved online?


Having three days for a move instead of 2 hours for forty moves, would be a logical explanation for the lack of mistakes...

Hmm, maybe Rybka is cheating too - have you made sure that its style and moves are the same in blitz and long games?
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #93 - 09/22/10 at 13:26:53
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I'm guessing drogo didn't really follow the Anand-Topalov match. 

To ask why they didn't play more like Rybka would suggest that they had a low correlative score. Topalov and Anand actually exceeded human tolerances according to chess.com's own method of analysis!* (See earlier comments in this thread for that information.)

Topalov played more like Rybka than Anand did, but Anand won the match and had slightly better positions for the most part. They both studied with Rybka, but Rybka is not the final word in chess skill. 

*Not by Chess.com's magical 5% though.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #92 - 09/22/10 at 09:54:20
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/22/10 at 08:48:56:
TJ, you may be right. Everything you say makes sense. 

Have you tried playing correspondence without an engine for the middlegame though?  It can be extremely rewarding to work for hours upon hours on a move and finally find just the right way to build up an attack on an isolated queen pawn! That sort of feeling can't be had by turning on a machine and letting it run overnight.


Well, I've only played one corr tournament so far, but there were certainly some rewarding hours of analysis with the engine.

Even with rybka, there are still many choices and decisions to be made by a human so I don't see why anyone would want to spend their time as only a move relay between rybka and their opponent.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #91 - 09/22/10 at 09:38:19
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drogo wrote on 09/22/10 at 00:40:21:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 09/21/10 at 21:54:21:


Serious correspondence chess is for researchers. Researchers use tools to make their discoveries. Efficiency is a major aspect of productive research in a competitive setting. Computers are practically a necessity for competitive research (i.e. serious correspondence chess) nowadays.


You call them researchers, I call them monkeys. The great opening novelties are discovered by the OTB players. All the chess books are written by OTB players. When Anand and Topalov prepared for their match, spending so much time and resources on opening preparation, they chose their seconds among the OTB players. Damned, they both ignored those CC "researchers"!


Sorry but you're wrong about that.  Jiri Dufek was one of Topalov's seconds and his expertise is computer chess not OTB (he authored the Rybka 4 opening book etc)
  

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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #90 - 09/22/10 at 08:48:56
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TJ, you may be right. Everything you say makes sense. 

Have you tried playing correspondence without an engine for the middlegame though?  It can be extremely rewarding to work for hours upon hours on a move and finally find just the right way to build up an attack on an isolated queen pawn! That sort of feeling can't be had by turning on a machine and letting it run overnight.
  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #89 - 09/22/10 at 06:23:39
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Quote:
I hold out hope that we can develop some sort of Turing test for correspondence chess.


I don't see how you can realistically ban engine use, while allowing the use of databases and books (and even one's own engine analysis as long as it's done previous to the game?). 

Surely, the few moves between where the database ends and the point where one side should resign must be decreasing almost annually. And there are so many games played every year that it's practically impossible to have a reference base that covers all games played by online centaurs everywhere. 

Besides, a model game one is following usually still provides you with strong moves and ideas of how to continue, even if the defender in your own game departs from the model game.

Another thing is that most serious players are training/analysing with an engine for several hours everyday, so it would not be surprising if that influenced their playing style and way of thinking.


And finally even if there would be a way of proving that somebody is cheating by using an engine, there is still the old cheating that made people scoff about corr when I was young. That is, even if every move is "human" there is no guarantee that the move originated from the player and not from a stronger friend or friends. Which would practically mean that any improvement in a player would give rise to suspicion - so, "only dabbling allowed"!  Grin
« Last Edit: 09/22/10 at 08:40:27 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Yelena Dembo on Chess.com
Reply #88 - 09/22/10 at 04:47:37
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Agreed 100%, Chevy! Many serious authors cull through correspondence games in search of deep novelties, which years later appear over the board!
  
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