Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav (Read 12346 times)
Ludde
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #10 - 12/08/10 at 06:38:22
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 12/07/10 at 23:56:21:
Ludde wrote on 12/07/10 at 14:06:57:
I do have a few old ideas though, one being in the line after 5...Be6 to insert the move 6.Na3 to provoke 6...b5

Black is far more likely to play 6...Qd5 now Nc3 is no longer possible.

Had a look and that seems very true. Qd5 more or less buries that idea (6.Na3).
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #9 - 12/07/10 at 23:56:21
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Ludde wrote on 12/07/10 at 14:06:57:
I do have a few old ideas though, one being in the line after 5...Be6 to insert the move 6.Na3 to provoke 6...b5

Black is far more likely to play 6...Qd5 now Nc3 is no longer possible.
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #8 - 12/07/10 at 14:06:57
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usual-suspect wrote on 11/26/10 at 07:21:26:
I never liked the suggestion of Kosten in "The Dynamic English" versus variation below:
1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 dc4:

Kosten recommended 
5.Qc2, but now 5.- Be6 6.Ng5 Bd5 7.e4 h6 looks really fine for black according to my understanding.

So, what did Marin in "GM repertoire - The English Opening" suggest. 5.0-0 - perfect I though but when checking the variations he omits 5.- Bf5 which I even assumed to be the best line for Black since I analyzed some time this variation a year back or so, the 'point' is
6.Na3 e5 - some GM-games have occurred in this variation too.
Have I missed this chapter somewhere in the book (I browsed it many times), or have Marin missed it. Of course there is a reason but I don't get it, really disappointing. Even if Marin do think this is crap for Black, he should for sure mention it and give some hint of why - this isn't good enough. 

Any suggestions??


I'm quite converted to believing more in 5.0-0 rather than 5.Qc2 since Marins book and maybe just because the new flavour is always more interesting. I do have a few old ideas though, one being in the line after 5...Be6 to insert the move 6.Na3 to provoke 6...b5 and now play 7.Ng5 Bd5 8.e4 h6 9.exd5 since the inserted moves (Na3, b5) make quite a difference.
I have never looked too carefully at this, but remember not finding anything immediately wrong with it after a quick look.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #7 - 12/01/10 at 13:10:06
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usual-suspect wrote on 11/28/10 at 23:58:12:
b) 14.Qd2 g6 15.Qa5 Be6 and Black should be ok, Kerr-Lanc, cr 2005.

Well I certainly wouldn't play 15.Qa5 myself! I would be happy enough with White's space after 0-0, Nc3 followed by maybe b3 and Bb2/a3, especially as I don't know what the bishop is doing on g7.

Keano wrote on 11/29/10 at 09:09:38:
I suppose Black should prefer 14...Nd5 though as in Glud-Hansen 2006. Do you prefer White there? From Blacks point of view he at least has a simple plan - ...Be6, ...Qd7, ...g6, ...Bg7 etc 

Yes, this is solid, but I suppose White had a little edge in the game, and should probably have doubled rooks on the c-file to hit the c6-pawn instead of playing a4.
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #6 - 11/29/10 at 09:09:38
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/26/10 at 16:35:01:
Maybe White should prefer 10.e5 to my 10.Qxc4, the game Lie-Pitl, 2006 was fun: (after 1. c4 c6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. Qc2 Be6 6. Ng5 Bd5 7. e4 h6 8. Nh3 Be6 9. Nf4 Bc8) 10. e5 Nd5 11. Qxc4 Nxf4 12. Qxf4 Na6 13. d4 Nb4 14. O-O! Nc2 15. d5! Nxa1 16. e6 winning quickly. Smiley


Very nice line! I suppose Black should prefer 14...Nd5 though as in Glud-Hansen 2006. Do you prefer White there? From Blacks point of view he at least has a simple plan - ...Be6, ...Qd7, ...g6, ...Bg7 etc
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #5 - 11/28/10 at 23:58:12
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Hi, excellent with some suggestions, now I'm home with books and db!

@Hehmer
1) I missed the alternative route but as you state, h6 is very useful and 8.-e5 isn't mentioned anyway. I am very disappointing with the fact that this line doesn't appear in Marins book, his recommendation could be the starting point of what to search for. But...
2) I very much like the idea of 9.d4 Bxd4 10.Bf4!, btw sw likes it too. White gets the initiative. I prepared this line as Black(!) when I could face my own repertoire. I missed this oppertunity by White and this line is really testable.

@Neric & @Paddy
9.d4 is very much what I want, see above.
9.d3 looks good for White too:
9.- Nbd7 10.Be3 ed3: (10.-0-0 11.Nxd7) 11.Nxd3(!) and now neither 11.- Be7 nor 11.- Bxd3 12.Qxd3 looks ok for Black.
9.- ed3:?! 10.Nxd3 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 and White looks even better compared to 9.- Nbd7
9.- 0-0 10.Be3 Be7 could be Blacks best bet. Second thought is that 10.- Qe7 is probably stronger, still White is better I think.
.. so 8.Nfe5 looks stronger compared to 8.Ng5 (still 8.Ng5 h6 9.Nxf7 is both playable and interesting, but here Black gets his chances for sure) as played in my reference game from Informator: Salov-Piket, 1996.

@Kosten
Yes indeed that was a crush, but most games I found gives black a pleasant position.
10.Qxc4 e5 looks even or maybe a little better for Black (since he's got lots of logical and developing moves available).
I agree, to me 10.e5 looks superior because of above, but I had, and still have, doubts about Whites chanses. White have development and space, but the center is too immobile for my imagination at least. I see a similarity to the QGA 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 variation and Aljechin 4.Nf3 de5: variation (incl. c6 and g6), with pieceplay on white squares. 
Some suggestion of improvement from Blacks point of view:
12.- Na6 13.d4 Nc7 (avoiding the troubles in Lie-game above looks sensible)
a) 14.0-0!? Ne6 (14.- g6 and 14.- Be6 looks reasonable too) 15.Qe4 Qxd4 16.Qc2 Bd7 17.Re1 withw compensation because of Blacks poor development, but no advantage as far as I can see, and now 17.- g6. 
b) 14.Qd2 g6 15.Qa5 Be6 and Black should be ok, Kerr-Lanc, cr 2005.

How about that?
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #4 - 11/26/10 at 16:38:05
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Neric wrote on 11/26/10 at 12:41:34:
After 8...Bc5 the best continuation is 9.d3 based on the game Longinov-Biriukov, St. Petersburg 1998 and of course the allmighty silicon monster.


In fact White was Loginov, a well-known expert on these systems for White.
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #3 - 11/26/10 at 16:35:01
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usual-suspect wrote on 11/26/10 at 07:21:26:
I never liked the suggestion of Kosten in "The Dynamic English" versus variation below:
1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 dc4:

Kosten recommended 
5.Qc2, but now 5.- Be6 6.Ng5 Bd5 7.e4 h6 looks really fine for black according to my understanding.

Maybe White should prefer 10.e5 to my 10.Qxc4, the game Lie-Pitl, 2006 was fun: (after 1. c4 c6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. Nf3 dxc4 5. Qc2 Be6 6. Ng5 Bd5 7. e4 h6 8. Nh3 Be6 9. Nf4 Bc8) 10. e5 Nd5 11. Qxc4 Nxf4 12. Qxf4 Na6 13. d4 Nb4 14. O-O! Nc2 15. d5! Nxa1 16. e6 winning quickly. Smiley
  
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #2 - 11/26/10 at 12:41:34
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After 8...Bc5 the best continuation is 9.d3 based on the game Longinov-Biriukov, St. Petersburg 1998 and of course the allmighty silicon monster.
  
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Hehmer
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Re: Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
Reply #1 - 11/26/10 at 09:14:12
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Marin treats that line with the additional and useful move h6 in 3C1 (5...Be6 6.Ng5 Bf5 7.Na3 h6 8.Nf3). He misses the important idea 8...e5 though because it never appeared in this position. 

In case it's interesting for you, here some older analysis of mine considering a suggestion of Piket in his notes to Salov-Piket, 1996. 

1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 c6 3.Bg2 d5 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.O-O Bf5 6.Na3 e5 7.Nxc4 e4 8.Nfe5 Bc5 

(!, idea 9.Qb3 Qe7, Piket)
(8...Nbd7 9.d4 exd3 10.Nxd3 Be7 11.Qb3 Nb6 12.Na5 +=, Karner - Polugaevsky, 1973) 

9.d4!? Bxd4 
(9... exd3 10.Nxd3 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 (11.exd3!?) 11...Qxd3 12.exd3 O-O 13.Na5 +=)
(9... Qxd4 10.Qxd4 Bxd4 11.Nd6+ Kf8 12.Nexf7 Bc5 13.Be3 +/-)

10.Bf4 O-O 
(10... Bxe5 11. Bxe5 O-O 12. Nd6 Qe7 13. Qd4 +=/good compensation ) 

11.Nxf7 Rxf7 12.Nd6 +=



  
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usual-suspect
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Kosten vs Marin - White hits the wall in Anti-slav
11/26/10 at 07:21:26
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I never liked the suggestion of Kosten in "The Dynamic English" versus variation below:
1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 dc4:

Kosten recommended 
5.Qc2, but now 5.- Be6 6.Ng5 Bd5 7.e4 h6 looks really fine for black according to my understanding.

So, what did Marin in "GM repertoire - The English Opening" suggest. 5.0-0 - perfect I though but when checking the variations he omits 5.- Bf5 which I even assumed to be the best line for Black since I analyzed some time this variation a year back or so, the 'point' is
6.Na3 e5 - some GM-games have occurred in this variation too.
Have I missed this chapter somewhere in the book (I browsed it many times), or have Marin missed it. Of course there is a reason but I don't get it, really disappointing. Even if Marin do think this is crap for Black, he should for sure mention it and give some hint of why - this isn't good enough. 

Any suggestions??
  
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