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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Curiousity in the Queen's Indian (Read 115437 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #8 - 12/11/10 at 12:17:41
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TN wrote on 12/11/10 at 11:54:41:
Someone should send this thread to Aagaard...he blogged recently about how tricky it is to prepare for opponents using the GM Repertoires!  Wink


Well, if it's unintentionally a solution to Marin's repertoire that's nice.

However, this is part of solving black's problems in 1. Nf3, which if this line holds up, black can equalize by force against the Khalifman repertoire by using yet another move order nuance [1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 e6 5. 0-0 (5. d4 c5 leads to the thread topic, 5. Nc3 Ne4! is the same super-accurate move order, Bb4 also equalizes) Be7 6. Nc3 Ne4! is the super-accurate move order, now 7. Nxe4 Bxe4 8. d3 Bb7 9. e4 c5! 10. Re1 Nc6! 11. d4 cxd4 12. Nxd4 Nxd4 13. Qxd4 0-0 14. Rd1 Bc6 15. Bf4 Bc5 is completely equal]. Note: the solution to the Khalifman repertoire does not work if black plays 6...Be7 7. Re1 Ne4, or if he tries to approach via a Hedgehog, where the ...c5 allows white the comfortable Qxd4 variation described in Amentanoitos' analysis.

Basically white's last bastion in the 1. Nf3 repertoire would be transposing to a normal Queen's Indian via 6. d4, but those positions are considered satisfactory for black theoretically, and have been for a long time now.

This line could potentially be a big deal, and I want white to prove better, but I'm failing.
  

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TN
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #7 - 12/11/10 at 11:54:41
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Someone should send this thread to Aagaard...he blogged recently about how tricky it is to prepare for opponents using the GM Repertoires!  Wink
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #6 - 12/11/10 at 10:22:39
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Papageno wrote on 12/11/10 at 10:17:21:
Marin has a chapter about what he calls "The Inferior Queen's Indian". One line he analyses is 1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 b6 5. d4 Bb7 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 (This is in his vol. 3, not vol. 2). – Hope this explains how he arrives in this QI position.


Maybe someone could get Marin to do an update on 9...d6 then. Grin
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #5 - 12/11/10 at 10:17:21
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Marin has a chapter about what he calls "The Inferior Queen's Indian". One line he analyses is 1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 b6 5. d4 Bb7 6. d5 exd5 7. Nh4 g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Bg5 (This is in his vol. 3, not vol. 2). – Hope this explains how he arrives in this QI position.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #4 - 12/11/10 at 09:37:08
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Quote:

Marin covers this line by transposition in his English vol 2.  He doesn't consider 9 ...d6, however his mainline is 9...0-0 10 Bg5 Qc8 11 cxd5 d6 and now 12 Qd2 followed by Bh6, with some Qf4 ideas.  If white exchanges the bishop he has a nice modern benoni - the Nh4 is slightly misplaced but black has also misplaced the Bb7 and lost a tempo with the Queen - so he thinks it's favourable.  If the bishops are exchanged white can play a3/b4/Rac1 happily.


How does Marin reach this from the English given he uses 1. c4/2. g3? I'd have thought that'd effectively rule out any QID set-up (or Hedgehog for that matter).

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I can't help but wonder if 9...d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 0-0 12 Qd2 is similar - the only difference is the Qd7 vs Qc8.  In favour of Qd7, b5 might come faster (but black is underdeveloped currently), but otherwise Nbd7 isn't possible without losing another tempo.  So white might even be able to force through e5 faster, since the Nh4 supports this as d5 has extra defence.  I think there are too many possibilities to look at concrete analysis, but I wouldn't be so keen to claim black has a superior benoni just yet.


9...d6 10. Bg5 Qd7 11. cxd5 h6 throws a wrench in that idea of a Qd2 battery. The difference between having a Qc8 and Qd7 is major - now on 12. Bf4 g5 just wins, unlike in the other line where white has a tactical resource with Nf5 threatening Ne7+ winning the Q. 12. Be3 blocks the e-pawn, 12. Bd2 is awkward, and 12. Bc1 (engine's preference ironically) is just lame. Finally that brings us to 12. Bxf6 which cannot possibly give white an advantage with no hole on d5 to exploit.

Unlike the other sidelines Grivas covers this one appears to fully equalize.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #3 - 12/11/10 at 09:08:54
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BPaulsen wrote on 12/10/10 at 21:36:57:
10. cxd5 0-0 leads to very satisfactory Benoni structures for black owing to white's Nh4 taking forever to get back into play.


Marin covers this line by transposition in his English vol 2.  He doesn't consider 9 ...d6, however his mainline is 9...0-0 10 Bg5 Qc8 11 cxd5 d6 and now 12 Qd2 followed by Bh6, with some Qf4 ideas.  If white exchanges the bishop he has a nice modern benoni - the Nh4 is slightly misplaced but black has also misplaced the Bb7 and lost a tempo with the Queen - so he thinks it's favourable.  If the bishops are exchanged white can play a3/b4/Rac1 happily.

I can't help but wonder if 9...d6 10 Bg5 Qd7 11 cxd5 0-0 12 Qd2 is similar - the only difference is the Qd7 vs Qc8.  In favour of Qd7, b5 might come faster (but black is underdeveloped currently), but otherwise Nbd7 isn't possible without losing another tempo.  So white might even be able to force through e5 faster, since the Nh4 supports this as d5 has extra defence.  I think there are too many possibilities to look at concrete analysis, but I wouldn't be so keen to claim black has a superior benoni just yet.

One thing is 12 Qd2 Re8 13 Bh6 Bh8 14 e4 Na6 15 Nf5.  Marin covers this with Qc8 and claims a clear advantage to white.  This is a better version since d6 is covered, but it seems the Nh4 is back in play already.

I was interested to note that 9 0-0 0-0 10 Bf4 was the course of Alekhine-Capablanca, New York 1927, which Capa won easily playing a good benoni.

As an aside, I was looking through Grivas survey on these lines in CBM and was suprised to see that numerous sidelines after 4 g3 are not that bad.  Tiviakov has been hacking away with 4/5...c6 and d5 transposing to the Catalan for instance.
  
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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #2 - 12/10/10 at 23:04:36
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TN wrote on 12/10/10 at 22:54:16:
9...d6 is not a new move, having been played in three correspondence games in 2004-05. But meeting 10.Bg5 with 10...Qd7 is new, and quite clever.


Right, that's why I called 9...d6 a nuance instead of a novelty.

Quote:

Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.


Black's doing well in that position after 7...Bxd5.

Quote:

I also looked at 9.Bf4 0-0 10.Bd6 Re8 11.cd5 which the Informant likes for White, but 11...Nh5! 12.0-0 Qf6 13.Bb8 Rab8 is better for Black, not White.

After 10.cd5 0-0, the most recent game of relevance, Chadaev-Lubczynski, continued 11.Nf3 Na6 12.Nd2 Nc7 13.Qb3 b5 14.e4, but Black is doing pretty well here.


Right, both are dead-ends. I'm not impressed by white's prospects in any of the Benoni-type structures with cxd5, but nor have any of the attempts to exploit a d5 hole panned out.

Given 4. g3 is the main line of the Queen's Indian Defense this is a pretty big deal.
  

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Re: Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
Reply #1 - 12/10/10 at 22:54:16
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9...d6 is not a new move, having been played in three correspondence games in 2004-05. But meeting 10.Bg5 with 10...Qd7 is new, and quite clever.

Maybe White can play a 21st Century Gambit a tempo down with 7.cd5 Bd5 (7...Nd5 8.Nh4) 8.Nc3, but White doesn't get in e4 as quickly as in the 4...Ba6 5.Qc2 line so I suspect this isn't a serious try for an advantage.

I also looked at 9.Bf4 0-0 10.Bd6 Re8 11.cd5 which the Informant likes for White, but 11...Nh5! 12.0-0 Qf6 13.Bb8 Rab8 is better for Black, not White.

After 10.cd5 0-0, the most recent game of relevance, Chadaev-Lubczynski, continued 11.Nf3 Na6 12.Nd2 Nc7 13.Qb3 b5 14.e4, but Black is doing pretty well here.
  

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Curiousity in the Queen's Indian
12/10/10 at 21:36:57
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1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5

This is supposed to not be very good, but I'll be damned if I can figure out a road to anything for white due to a significant move order nuance on move 9.

6. d5 [6. dxc5 Bxc5 =, 6. Nc3 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Nc6 8. Qf4 Bb4 9. Bd2 (9. 0-0 Bxc3 =+) 0-0 10. 0-0 Be7 =, 6. 0-0 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Nc6 8. Qf4 Ne7! intending Ng6 =] exd5 7. Nh4 (7. Ng5 Qc7 8. cxd5 h6 9. Nh3 d6 10. Nc3 a6 11. a4 g6 12. 0-0 Bg7 13. e4 0-0 14. f4 Nbd7 15. Nf2 Rfe8 =) g6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. 0-0 d6! (an important move order nuance, 9...0-0 10. Bg5 +=) 10. Nxd5 (10. Bg5 Qd7! is the point of 9...d6, 10. cxd5 0-0 leads to very satisfactory Benoni structures for black owing to white's Nh4 taking forever to get back into play) Nxd5 11. Bxd5 Nc6 with counterplay based on white's slow development, and annoying weakness on b2.

Anyone want to contribute to the white cause? I've got nothing. I've tried just about every way possible to exploit black's d5 square, but every single time the Pb2 weakness hampers white, and the Nh4 is just out of play.

This line looks like the death of 4. g3 as a try for an advantage, unless someone can come up with something I couldn't.
  

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