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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are there openings everyone should learn first? (Read 68211 times)
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #99 - 02/27/11 at 16:34:16
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Holbox wrote on 02/27/11 at 10:01:39:
Hi people, 

The good thing about an open repertoire, as suggested by Markovich, is that can be used for life and you don't need too much subtle knowledge closed positions, piece placement and chains of pawns. Calculation and endings knowledge is enough.

The problem with open positions is than not everybody can be a master of them. Even more when you are a 40 years old player who started studying the game after 30.

I have done my efforts by playing open games and I have enjoyed them but many times I've got positions that I can't resolve correctly (no matter if I was winning or losing I didn't have any clue). Ok! I don't want to become a GM but I like to win and that's why I prefer to open the positions just when I see some concrete options which are inside my calculation horizon which, by the way, is an approximation to Yermo's ideas.  


I think the point Markovich is trying to make (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you can't calculate well enough to play the tactical positions in open games well, then you should play them more often to practice that calculation ability. Practice makes perfect! 

If you don't want to challenge yourself that way, and prefer to play more closed openings, then that's fine. But improvement comes from leaving your comfort zone and challenging yourself, so don't expect to improve as quickly with that approach.

  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #98 - 02/27/11 at 14:28:59
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My thanks to my most learned chessfriend Paddy for so many fascinating quotations, and felicitous ones as well.  I was fairly certain that I was in good company with my point of view, but until now I didn't know it for a fact.
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #97 - 02/27/11 at 10:01:39
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Hi people, 

The good thing about an open repertoire, as suggested by Markovich, is that can be used for life and you don't need too much subtle knowledge closed positions, piece placement and chains of pawns. Calculation and endings knowledge is enough.

The problem with open positions is than not everybody can be a master of them. Even more when you are a 40 years old player who started studying the game after 30.

I have done my efforts by playing open games and I have enjoyed them but many times I've got positions that I can't resolve correctly (no matter if I was winning or losing I didn't have any clue). Ok! I don't want to become a GM but I like to win and that's why I prefer to open the positions just when I see some concrete options which are inside my calculation horizon which, by the way, is an approximation to Yermo's ideas.   

  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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Paddy
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #96 - 02/26/11 at 14:12:52
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Some opinions I have found on the Open Games vs Closed games debate.

"A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defence and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game." GM Richard Reti (!), "Masters of the Chessboard" (Bell,1933)

"Players of the 4th and 5th categories are recommended to play as far as possible OPEN GAMES (except for the Ruy Lopez). It is useful to employ gambits. (...) Here it is very useful to analyse for example, games of Anderssen, Morphy and Tchigorin.
GM Alexey Suetin, "Modern Chess Opening Theory", (Pergamon,1965). 

"There are two ways of solving this problem. One is to select some half-open system and study its hidden possibilities thoroughly enough to remove any fear of surprises that your opponent might have prepared against you. Granted a certain rationale in this method, which does enable a player to achieve perfectly adequate competitive results, a more purposeful approach (from the point of view of improving your play most rapidly) is to opt for 1...e5! In this case it often happens that from the very first moves the game enters the realm of tactical complications, the analysis of which will quickly contribute to raising your class of play. Admittedly this entals much more work."
Vladimir Zak, "Improve our Chess Results", (Batsford 1985). (Zak was an important coach in Leningrad for many years; he was first coach to Spassky, Korchnoi and others. For a dissenting voice, not to say a hatchet-job on Zak, see Yermolinsky's "The Road to Chess Improvement".)

"It is always best, when learning anything, first to try to do the simplest things well and then to learn the more difficult, and this is particularly true here. The objects and methods in closed positions are far more subtle and hidden than those in open positions, and very considerable knowledge and experience, as well as ability, are necessary to play the close game even reasonably well. In the open game, however, both the object - direct attack on some point in the enemy game, often the king's position - and the method - rapid and effective development - are very much simpler and can be understood and reasonably attempted by comparatively weak players. And it is only by starting with the open game that a chess player will learn how to make combinations, an obvious essential to anyone who wishes to play well. Position play will come later and is in any case useless without combinative ability, since it is only by a combination that positional advantage can normally be turned to account." 
IM Hugh Alexander, "Chess", Pitman 1968. (In the period 1935-1955, Alexander was England's strongest player, who took many international scalps, including Botvinnik and Bronstein. His chess career is said to have been constrained by the fact that he was an important figure in British Intelligence.)

"All chess openings starting with 1 d4 are called 'closed' or 'semi-closed'. To play them well and efficiently, one must have a certain understanding of position and some experience. Therefore I advise you to play, at least for a year, 'open' games, and only after this can you start playing 'closed' games."
Garry Kasparov, "Kasparov Teaches Chess", Batsford 1986.

So, except for Yermolinsky, the expert views I have found so far are very much in favour of what has become known here as the "Markovich Doctrine" (cheers, Mark  Wink )

As well as the open games - closed games debate there's another related dichotomy: clear goals vs flexibility. 

Flexible openings (e.g. Flank Openings, the Modern defence, the Nimzo-Indian...) make great demands on a player's positional skill and experience (aka pattern recognition), not only requiring a wide knowledge of different structures, but also the ability to distinguish between favourable and unfavourable versions of the same structure.

GM Nigel Davies has just written about this issue at his website http://chessimprover.com: I quote:

"The basic problem is that (...) flexible openings make great demands on someone’s positional play because they can resolve themselves into many different types of pawn structure. (...) So for a relatively inexperienced player or one whose positional play has not been highly developed it’s much better to play something much more direct in which the position of the central pawns is decided early on and the plans become relatively clear. The London System tends to be very good for this as do the Colle-Zukertort and Torre Attack, and after 1.e4 there are good choices in the f4 Sicilian and Scotch. And if you’re under 1400 you don’t really need to think about these things at all, just get your pieces out and try to assimilate an understanding of a few classic game plans!

One of the reasons more sophisticated openings tend to be popular with Grandmasters is BECAUSE they are so difficult for less experienced players to get to grips with, so they can outplay their opponents much more easily. When beginners play such lines they are not doing themselves any favours, the structural and planning issues will be too complex until they’ve mastered simpler concepts. And they’ll never master the basics whilst wallowing in a sea of flexibility."

Well, I guess Markovich and I would take issue with Davies's suggestions of 1 d4 openings for juniors or inexperienced players, but Davies's main point is sound and important in the context of this discussion.
« Last Edit: 02/26/11 at 18:37:29 by Paddy »  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #95 - 02/13/11 at 16:38:26
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MNb wrote on 02/12/11 at 16:36:39:
Then it doesn't make much sense to add 1.d4 e6 2.c4 d5 as 2...f5 also leads to the main lines of the Dutch.
If you want to play the Tarrasch, buy Ametainoitos' forthcoming book and learn to deal with the d-pawn special stuff.

Well, the point is that I'm already pretty comfortable playing the Dutch, and I think (actually, Markovitch thinks, and I'm willing to listen to his advice) that playing the Tarrasch some of the time could help my overall improvement as a player. I don't think playing the main line Colle or London as black will help my overall improvement as a player as much, and those lines are just one more thing to learn, at a point where I'm better off focusing most of my study time on tactics.

  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #94 - 02/12/11 at 16:36:39
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Then it doesn't make much sense to add 1.d4 e6 2.c4 d5 as 2...f5 also leads to the main lines of the Dutch.
If you want to play the Tarrasch, buy Ametainoitos' forthcoming book and learn to deal with the d-pawn special stuff.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #93 - 02/11/11 at 20:51:06
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MNb wrote on 02/11/11 at 20:42:46:
How do you answer 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 ? If f5 White still can play the main lines of the Dutch.

That's what I play - 2. ... f5. I want to play the main lines of the Dutch. It's the anti-Dutch stuff that I avoid by playing e6 before f5. 
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #92 - 02/11/11 at 20:42:46
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How do you answer 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 ? If f5 White still can play the main lines of the Dutch.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #91 - 02/11/11 at 19:01:14
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So just to prove that I really am paying attention to the advice here, I'm seriously considering switching back to the Tarrasch Defense as black, at least part time. I've said before that it might be worth giving it another chance at some point, and I already own Schiller's book on it, so I may as well. 

And I realized that if I stick with my 1. ... e6 move order that I use to avoid the anti-Dutch lines, then I can play the Tarrasch if white plays an early c4, and stick to the Dutch against the d pawn specials.
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #90 - 02/09/11 at 21:47:45
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Jay wrote on 02/09/11 at 15:19:16:

Matemax wrote on 02/07/11 at 16:16:27:

Anyway it is better to understand principles (opening, middle game, endings,...) than to learn forced move orders. The first makes you a better chess player - the second just reminds me of some senseless lessons from my schooldays  Undecided

I agree with you, but add that exposing yourself to new positions creates growth too.  I tend to meet 1.e4 with c5, so if I play 1.e4 e5, then it would probably be unrated club games, so I am not really concerned if I find the right moves immediately.  I want to get some fun out of it while getting a feel for new positions.


I've looked at a couple of really forcing variations for my repertoire lately - the kind where if you rely on general understanding you get slaughtered, period. It occurs to me that all amateurs have some types of position we understand far better than others - for example I love to play against the Pirc/Modern but hate facing the Caro-Kann. 

Shouldn't it be possible then to choose super-sharp, memory-intensive lines precisely against the openings we don't understand? That way hopefully we will either get a position we enjoy playing or play most of the game from memory - no third option is allowed!

This approach may not be for those who shoot for the GM title; they should strive for some measure of universality in their play.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #89 - 02/09/11 at 15:19:16
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Alias wrote on 02/08/11 at 14:51:28:
Avoid Schiller. "Slay..." is about Modern Steinitz, not Schliemann. It's from Everyman, not Quality Chess. Try Niggemann (or other chess book store) instead of bn.

Oops, QC is Attacking the Spanish.

Matemax wrote on 02/07/11 at 16:16:27:
I dont think it is useful to play a variation like "Schliemann" if you want to improve - there is simply too much explored and too many forced lines. You simply end up in trying to repeat the moves from the book (in this case "Ruy Lopez Revisited" from Sokolov is what you need).

Playing a variation like 3...g6!? on the other hand relies on some basic understanding - you may just replay the games of Smyslov (with Black) in this line and start practising it yourself.

Anyway it is better to understand principles (opening, middle game, endings,...) than to learn forced move orders. The first makes you a better chess player - the second just reminds me of some senseless lessons from my schooldays  Undecided

I agree with you, but add that exposing yourself to new positions creates growth too.  I tend to meet 1.e4 with c5, so if I play 1.e4 e5, then it would probably be unrated club games, so I am not really concerned if I find the right moves immediately.  I want to get some fun out of it while getting a feel for new positions.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #88 - 02/08/11 at 14:51:28
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Jay wrote on 02/07/11 at 15:27:08:
Alias wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:58:57:
Jay wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:39:12:
Matemax wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:09:06:
Meat wrote on 02/07/11 at 13:22:19:
Going back to the question of what Black should play in the Ruy Lopez: I don't like the Berlin classical at all, so what are other options?
Specifically, what about the Berlin Wall Endgame? It's sort of an open position, but of a completely different nature. 
I'm guession the Möller / Archangelsk or Open Ruy would be the natural choices, right? But does Black really have that much activity in the Open with 9. Nbd2? 
The Marshall would be great if it weren't for the Anti-Marshalls. What about other lines of the closed?
The Jänisch / Schliemann could also be a try. 


In perspective of learning something you should play the Closed Lines (Chigorin, Breyer,...) - but to achieve this goal you need an intermediate solution which could be 3...g6!?

Are there any cohesive works on the Schliemann?  I have wanted to take it up mostly because it seems like it would be fun, but I really only know of one book with coverage of it (one of Davies Gambiteer books).


You haven't looked very hard, have you? Try Brunello or Sokolov.

Okay 1 was an exageration.  I know of a book by Schiller, but it focused solely on the classical variation.  I also know that Quality Chess has Slay the Spanish.  My initial efforts were along the lines of searching bn.com for Schliemann and I had 0 relevant results.


Avoid Schiller. "Slay..." is about Modern Steinitz, not Schliemann. It's from Everyman, not Quality Chess. Try Niggemann (or other chess book store) instead of bn.
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #87 - 02/07/11 at 16:16:27
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I dont think it is useful to play a variation like "Schliemann" if you want to improve - there is simply too much explored and too many forced lines. You simply end up in trying to repeat the moves from the book (in this case "Ruy Lopez Revisited" from Sokolov is what you need).

Playing a variation like 3...g6!? on the other hand relies on some basic understanding - you may just replay the games of Smyslov (with Black) in this line and start practising it yourself.

Anyway it is better to understand principles (opening, middle game, endings,...) than to learn forced move orders. The first makes you a better chess player - the second just reminds me of some senseless lessons from my schooldays  Undecided
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #86 - 02/07/11 at 15:27:08
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Alias wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:58:57:
Jay wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:39:12:
Matemax wrote on 02/07/11 at 14:09:06:
Meat wrote on 02/07/11 at 13:22:19:
Going back to the question of what Black should play in the Ruy Lopez: I don't like the Berlin classical at all, so what are other options?
Specifically, what about the Berlin Wall Endgame? It's sort of an open position, but of a completely different nature. 
I'm guession the Möller / Archangelsk or Open Ruy would be the natural choices, right? But does Black really have that much activity in the Open with 9. Nbd2? 
The Marshall would be great if it weren't for the Anti-Marshalls. What about other lines of the closed?
The Jänisch / Schliemann could also be a try. 


In perspective of learning something you should play the Closed Lines (Chigorin, Breyer,...) - but to achieve this goal you need an intermediate solution which could be 3...g6!?

Are there any cohesive works on the Schliemann?  I have wanted to take it up mostly because it seems like it would be fun, but I really only know of one book with coverage of it (one of Davies Gambiteer books).


You haven't looked very hard, have you? Try Brunello or Sokolov.

Okay 1 was an exageration.  I know of a book by Schiller, but it focused solely on the classical variation.  I also know that Quality Chess has Slay the Spanish.  My initial efforts were along the lines of searching bn.com for Schliemann and I had 0 relevant results.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #85 - 02/07/11 at 15:25:43
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Particularly in context of the OP, but also in general, I don't think that repertoire recommendations make any sense unless they're couched in terms of what level of chess strength any given recommendation is for.

There are some remarks above by someone saying, "I don't like the Berlin Classical, I think I'll just play the Berlin."  Such a remark makes a great deal of sense if uttered by someone 2300 or so; it's risible if uttered by someone 1800 or so.  So the strength of the player who'll play this or that is something you really can't do without in these discussions.

There is an unfortunately widespread view that in taking up chess opening systems, the all-important considerations are the player's taste and alleged style.  That perhaps is true above a certain level; it isn't true at lower levels; not, at any rate, if chess improvement is the goal.

The way these things are discussed, you would think that the outcomes of chess games depended more on what opening moves were played than on the relative chess understanding of the players.  Leaving aside questions of theoretical merit and assuming "normal" play, if you can't win a game of chess playing the Berlin Classical, the Archangel or the Open, your chances of winning one playing the Berlin Wall or any of the Closed Spanish systems certainly aren't greater and probably are rather minute, I opine.  Just the same, if you can't handle the IQP, you should either learn how or give up chess, rather than take up some system that accommodates this aspect of your "style."  Your "style" is not that you don't like IQP; your style is that you can't play chess.  Where I put IQP, I could also have put slash-and-burn play in open positions.

There may be some low-rated people out there who are nevertheless very superior technicians; I doubt it; but if there are, then I will concede that they should consider the Berlin Wall.  Otherwise, that's one of the very last systems that I'd recommend to an improving player.  Likewise the Schliemann which, because it sacrifices time in exchange for space and hugely exposes Black's king, is a very dangerous system indeed for lower-rated players to take up.
  

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