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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are there openings everyone should learn first? (Read 68208 times)
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #39 - 01/28/11 at 21:18:54
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Paddy wrote on 01/28/11 at 13:46:31:

In general, my coaching experience places me firmly in Markovich's camp, although I must admit that the strongest player I ever helped (now a GM) took a different route, but that was his decision, not something I pushed him into.


The fact that you didn't try to fit him into a preset mold probably aided his development as much as anything else you did.

I agree with Markovich's approach as a general rule, but a good teacher listens closely to his students and tailors an education to fit their needs and talents. It sounds like you did this with spectacular success in this case!

Btw, I'm impressed by how much this thread has exploded in the last 24 hours or so!
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #38 - 01/28/11 at 21:13:30
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Markovich wrote on 01/28/11 at 14:57:29:
ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:


I can't help but think that this is a case of one  taste being elevated to the status of a universal standard. Such a process makes up the very sand on the Isle of Zilbermints, but the Markovich doctrine does it as well.


Well let me preface my reply by saying that I don't claim to have God's truth.  I suppose you're a coach yourself and that you take my ideas as a criticism.  I'm sorry about that, and if you have a better idea for helping players to improve, I salute you.  But if someone comes to this forum and asks how he can improve his chess, I'm jolly well going to say what I think and not hem and haw about it.  And I make no apologies for that.  

I do believe that a majority of coaches, not only those of today but those of the past, have taken the same or very similar point of view (not, perhaps with respect to the Tarrasch but with respect to the importance in general of piece play in open positions).   I only jest when I claim to have originated it.

If (sic) you advocate any young and improving under-2100 player's taking up the French or the KID, I would consider your position to be the strange one.

Strange, but not bad. The French teaches a player about attacking a pawn chain (any position with e5/d4 vs. e6/d5, with the thematic ...c5 and ...f6 breaks, handling an IQP (3.Nd2 c5 4.ed5 ed5), when to sacrifice material for the initiative (e.g. ...g5 in the Steinitz), and the 6...Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 Winawer is guaranteed to produce tactical chances for Black. The Rubinstein and related variations teach how to handle the d4 vs. e6 pawn structure, and the key pawn structure with a2/b2/c3/f2/g2/h2 vs. a7/b7/e6/f7/g7/h7. 

The KID teaches how to attack in opposite-side attack positions (Mar del Plata), sacrificing material for the initiative (...g4/...f3 breaks in the Mar Del Plata, ...Nc6 in the Samisch, meeting Nc1 with ...e5 d5 Nd4 Nb3 c5 dc6 bc6, to name two examples), handling the e4 vs. d6 structure with a pawn on c4 (Fianchetto Main Line, 7...ed4 Classical), and the classical structure with c4+d5+e4 vs. c7+d6+e5 (pawn chains, when to break with ...f5). 

I wouldn't recommend the French or KID to most players either, but it obviously depends on the peculiarities of the player.


ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

You prescribe open games. The open games are not identical with open positions or with tactics. Your own point that closed positions eventually open up proves that, for goodness' sake!


I recall having seen this argument before, but I don't recall having responded to it.  I certainly don't dispute that the open games don't always lead to open positions.  But playing 1...e5 with ideas in mind like the Open Spanish or Two Knights Defense is, I think everyone will agree, the best way to try to bring about an open position.  And of course, French and other closed positions do often open up, but playing straight into closed positions is not the best way to acquire the skill necessary to play open ones -- while that skill is necessary to good play in many closed ones.  I think that coaches who tell their sub-2000 players to take up the Caro or the King's Indian are putting the cart way before the horse.  For goodness sake, indeed.

The Scandinavian is just as likely to open the position, but it doesn't teach a player enough about the fundamentals of pawn structures and dynamics of chess. 

The Caro-Kann is not always closed. Black can play 4...Nf6 5.Nf6 gf6 in the main line, which often leads to sharp tactical positions, he can meet 3.e5 with 3...c5 when dc5 will lead to a semi-open position quite quickly, 4.c4 blasts open the position and 4.c3 is rather easy for Black to meet if he understands the French Advance pawn structure at all. And 3.ed5 cd5 will quickly lead to an open position after 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5. It is a logical choice for some players , since it exposes them to the dynamics of chess and the nature of the initiative. 

I agree that the KID is too hard for a sub-2000 player to play successfully. White has a lot of different tries, all of which require a different reaction from Black. Not a practical option at all.


ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

Why should a 2000-level player's "supposed understanding" of the Najdorf be inferior to his alleged understanding of the Tarrasch?


Simply because a very straighforward and simple set of ideas lies behind the Tarrasch, while the Najdorf requires a very fine sense of how to balance all sorts of different strengths and weaknesses.  Look at Black's game against 6.Bg5, for crying out loud!  Look at his game against the English Attack!  I would never advise a 1900 player to take that on.  I would be much happier to see him in the attacking role there, but there are perhaps easier ways for a player in that class to get good chances against the Sicilian.  If a player can't figure out the best squares for his pieces in the Tarrasch or the Two Knights, he damn sure isn't going to be able to play anything else very well.  A 1900 player who can't do that but can play the Najdorf well?  Don't make me laugh.  He can't drive a Honda Civic, but he claims to be able to drive a Ferrari.  This guy will never see a Najdorf, he'll just lose to the c3 Sicilian or the Smith-Morra.  

If I had to teach the Sicilian to a player in that class, it would be the Lowenthal or perhaps the Four Knights.  But a big problem with 1...c5 for these players is that there are so many good replies besides the Open Sicilian.

I can't recommend the Najdorf to most sub-2000s either, but the Classical is quite a good option since it exposes the student to the ...e5 and ...e6 pawn structures without the necessity of learning more moves of theory than is practical at that level. Moving on, the Anti-Sicilians can be annoying, but the ...d5 Alapin, Smith-Morra and Wing Gambit at least lead to open positions. And it's important to be able to play against an initiative as well as with it. The Bb5 and Closed Sicilian setups are rather positional, but ...d6/...Nc6 gives Black some dynamic chances against Bb5, and the Closed Sicilian structure is essential for a player to learn since it arises frequently in the 1...e5 English.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

I know 1.e4 e5 players who are stalled at 1900 because they are mystified by positional chess--even after reading a positional manual.  And I know players who have improved most when they studied some opening like the K.I.D., and who still do not thrive in double-king-pawn openings.  Why do you think such people are so rare? 


I think that there are many people whose problems in chess are mis-diagnosed by their coaches.  I think that if anyone can't play well in open positions, it really won't help his game very much to study the French or the King's Indian or, for that matter, to develop a very fine sense of how to play a minority attack or besiege an isolated d-pawn.  Your King's Indian specialist will get blown off the board by the Four Pawns Attack, our outmaneuvered in a fluid system like the Gligoric.  Or his opponent will just play the Colle and beat him with very straightforward Bd3, Re1, e3-e4 ideas.  However if your 1900 player can sometimes beat 2200-level players in open positions (which would seem to imply that he's underrated), I will say fine, it's time for him to take a look at the French.

I agree, though a player could also gain an understanding of open positions (and chess in general) by studying the games of the old masters. 

I dispute the claim about the Colle since this is a closed opening (at first), and Black can always play ...c5/...cd4 when a d4+e3 vs. d5+e6 makes e4 less feasible, and c3+d4 vs. d5+e6 leads to the Carlsbad pawn structure. But to be honest a player who can play well in open positions will almost certainly be higher rated than a player who cannot, meaning that any sensible opening would lead to the higher rated player winning most of the time. 


I don't like war as a metaphor for chess, but I'll agree that it's a fist fight. But that goes to the fighting qualities of the player, which come from the soul, not from any coach.  Though I suppose coaches can encourage their development.


True, but when choosing openings for a player it is important to consider whether they prefer slow-paced, medium-paced or fast-paced games. They certainly need exposure to fast-paced games (which open positions tend to produce), though in the end the player's individual style and playing strength should be the basis of their openings.

In summary: I generally agree with Markovich's approach but it is not the only good one.
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #37 - 01/28/11 at 20:03:35
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I just want to make sure that the great "Markovich Doctrine" would still hold for an adult player (over 30) as it would hold for a young player.

If I started playing chess only couple of years ago but haven't played open games as Black, should I try to fix it as soon as possible? 

I tend to hold Markovich's opinion very highly and starting to think that I should of been playing open games and Tarrasch all along.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #36 - 01/28/11 at 18:30:40
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MNb wrote on 01/28/11 at 09:50:34:
ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:
And there's more than one way to fight a war.

Sure, but even 21st Century soldiers need to master basic skills. And I agree with Markovich that handling Open Games (either with White or Black) is one of them.
I actually saw a documentary on paper folding that had it in a controversy between those who emphasize over technique versus art.  One participant replied that sure art is the high ideal, but until one masters technique some technical masterpieces are impossible.  The same really goes for chess.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #35 - 01/28/11 at 14:58:29
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MNb wrote on 01/28/11 at 09:50:34:

That's a problem with every repertoire, don't you think? The idea is twofold: don't spend too much time on opening study; expand the horizon (ie replace stuff like the Danish Gambit) as soon as the student has a good feel for these classical openings.
How often does a beginner get positions a la the Lasker?
Moreover I don't think the entire repertoire should necessarily consist of classical openings. I would not call the Benkö classical, would you? Still I know from my own experience that it is a fine choice.

I dont thinik we disagree that much. Still the focus on classical openings is imho too narrow. I have seen a couple of the current Dutch GM's when they were young and they were quick in switching away from e4e5 and d4d5 (Brunia method and all that). 

Agree on the Benko btw


PS beginners don't get positions, they have to worry about tricks first. Wink
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #34 - 01/28/11 at 14:57:29
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ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:


I can't help but think that this is a case of one  taste being elevated to the status of a universal standard. Such a process makes up the very sand on the Isle of Zilbermints, but the Markovich doctrine does it as well.


Well let me preface my reply by saying that I don't claim to have God's truth.  I suppose you're a coach yourself and that you take my ideas as a criticism.  I'm sorry about that, and if you have a better idea for helping players to improve, I salute you.  But if someone comes to this forum and asks how he can improve his chess, I'm jolly well going to say what I think and not hem and haw about it.  And I make no apologies for that.  

I do believe that a majority of coaches, not only those of today but those of the past, have taken the same or very similar point of view (not, perhaps with respect to the Tarrasch but with respect to the importance in general of piece play in open positions).   I only jest when I claim to have originated it.

I you advocate any young and improving under-2100 player's taking up the French or the KID, I would consider your position to be the strange one.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

You prescribe open games. The open games are not identical with open positions or with tactics. Your own point that closed positions eventually open up proves that, for goodness' sake!


I recall having seen this argument before, but I don't recall having responded to it.  I certainly don't dispute that the open games don't always lead to open positions.  But playing 1...e5 with ideas in mind like the Open Spanish or Two Knights Defense is, I think everyone will agree, the best way to try to bring about an open position.  And of course, French and other closed positions do often open up, but playing straight into closed positions is not the best way to acquire the skill necessary to play open ones -- while that skill is necessary to good play in many closed ones.  I think that coaches who tell their sub-2000 players to take up the Caro or the King's Indian are putting the cart way before the horse.  For goodness sake, indeed.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

Why should a 2000-level player's "supposed understanding" of the Najdorf be inferior to his alleged understanding of the Tarrasch?


Simply because a very straighforward and simple set of ideas lies behind the Tarrasch, while the Najdorf requires a very fine sense of how to balance all sorts of different strengths and weaknesses.  Look at Black's game against 6.Bg5, for crying out loud!  Look at his game against the English Attack!  I would never advise a 1900 player to take that on.  I would be much happier to see him in the attacking role there, but there are perhaps easier ways for a player in that class to get good chances against the Sicilian.  If a player can't figure out the best squares for his pieces in the Tarrasch or the Two Knights, he damn sure isn't going to be able to play anything else very well.  A 1900 player who can't do that but can play the Najdorf well?  Don't make me laugh.  He can't drive a Honda Civic, but he claims to be able to drive a Ferrari.  This guy will never see a Najdorf, he'll just lose to the c3 Sicilian or the Smith-Morra.  

If I had to teach the Sicilian to a player in that class, it would be the Lowenthal or perhaps the Four Knights.  But a big problem with 1...c5 for these players is that there are so many good replies besides the Open Sicilian.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:

I know 1.e4 e5 players who are stalled at 1900 because they are mystified by positional chess--even after reading a positional manual.  And I know players who have improved most when they studied some opening like the K.I.D., and who still do not thrive in double-king-pawn openings.  Why do you think such people are so rare? 


I think that there are many people whose problems in chess are mis-diagnosed by their coaches.  I think that if anyone can't play well in open positions, it really won't help his game very much to study the French or the King's Indian or, for that matter, to develop a very fine sense of how to play a minority attack or besiege an isolated d-pawn.  Your King's Indian specialist will get blown off the board by the Four Pawns Attack, our outmaneuvered in a fluid system like the Gligoric.  Or his opponent will just play the Colle and beat him with very straightforward Bd3, Re1, e3-e4 ideas.  However if your 1900 player can sometimes beat 2200-level players in open positions (which would seem to imply that he's underrated), I will say fine, it's time for him to take a look at the French.

I don't like war as a metaphor for chess, but I'll agree that it's a fist fight. But that goes to the fighting qualities of the player, which come from the soul, not from any coach.  Though I suppose coaches can encourage their development.
  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #33 - 01/28/11 at 13:46:31
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ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 12:16:47:
Markovich wrote on 01/26/11 at 19:49:09:

new and improving players must play 1...e5 against 1.e4, particularly the black side of the Two Knights Defense, and must play the Tarrasch Defense against the closed systems. [...] After they get up to 2100 or so, I don't care what they do.


Well, that's Markovich's position. Extreme, isn't it? I know of a coach who is very successful (winning national junior titles) teaching little kids under 1200 the Caro-Kann, but I would never go that far myself. No, I do not disagree about open positions and piece play for beginners, let alone about tactics, but I find the extremity of this hard-chess hard-line a bit hard to take. (--MnB, it's one thing to value constructive proofs; it's quite another to adopt the views of Kronecker.)

Open games and IQP positions are indeed basic building blocks (I wish I had said the Traxler rather than the Tarrasch in my quote above, since the IQP does appear so frequently). But so are opposite-side castling with mutual pawn storms, French/KID positions with important pawn breaks that must be timed, and positions with the possibility of piece sacrifices against the castled king's position, especially the Greek gift.  Regarding the point that the latter are logically dependent on open positions I agree to an extent, but as I said earlier that is not the same as being dependent on open games per se. And even more than on open positions, they are dependent on sheer calculation, where something like the Najdorf is certainly adequate to develop some skill  (not that I recommend wasting time memorizing Najdorf theory). So why the rebarbative dogmatism? It's one thing to recommend exposure to a range of standard positions, another to clap the student on steel rails and place them on a one-size-fits-all linear course of the Two Knights' and the Tarrasch up to 2100.  If a player as White plays the Panov and the Exchange French with 4.c4 for a while, and as Black the QGA and the IQP Tarrasch French, he may gain experience with the IQP, notwithstanding that he must play the Tarrasch.


This caught my eye;

"I know of a coach who is very successful (winning national junior titles) teaching little kids under 1200 the Caro-Kann, but I would never go that far myself."

Every conscientious junior coach is faced with the conflict between promoting the long-term development of his students and giving them a "quick fix" with the intention of a pay-off in upcoming competitions. In other subjects it is associated with the concept of "teaching to the test" at the expense of genuine education. There is likely to be some overlap of course - it's rarely completely black-and -white Wink .

I knew a coach who used to teach his players the Alekhine. They did quite well for a while then hit a wall. When they finally moved to our club we found that they had missed out on a great many fundamentals.

In general, my coaching experience places me firmly in Markovich's camp, although I must admit that the strongest player I ever helped (now a GM) took a different route, but that was his decision, not something I pushed him into.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #32 - 01/28/11 at 12:16:47
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Markovich wrote on 01/26/11 at 19:49:09:

new and improving players must play 1...e5 against 1.e4, particularly the black side of the Two Knights Defense, and must play the Tarrasch Defense against the closed systems. [...] After they get up to 2100 or so, I don't care what they do.

Well, that's Markovich's position. Extreme, isn't it? I know of a coach who is very successful (winning national junior titles) teaching little kids under 1200 the Caro-Kann, but I would never go that far myself. No, I do not disagree about open positions and piece play for beginners, let alone about tactics, but I find the extremity of this hard-chess hard-line a bit hard to take. (--MnB, it's one thing to value constructive proofs; it's quite another to adopt the views of Kronecker.)

Open games and IQP positions are indeed basic building blocks (I wish I had said the Traxler rather than the Tarrasch in my quote above, since the IQP does appear so frequently). But so are opposite-side castling with mutual pawn storms, French/KID positions with important pawn breaks that must be timed, and positions with the possibility of piece sacrifices against the castled king's position, especially the Greek gift.  Regarding the point that the latter are logically dependent on open positions I agree to an extent, but as I said earlier that is not the same as being dependent on open games per se. And even more than on open positions, they are dependent on sheer calculation, where something like the Najdorf is certainly adequate to develop some skill  (not that I recommend wasting time memorizing Najdorf theory). So why the rebarbative dogmatism? It's one thing to recommend exposure to a range of standard positions, another to clap the student on steel rails and place them on a one-size-fits-all linear course of the Two Knights' and the Tarrasch up to 2100.  If a player as White plays the Panov and the Exchange French with 4.c4 for a while, and as Black the QGA and the IQP Tarrasch French, he may gain experience with the IQP, notwithstanding that he must play the Tarrasch.
« Last Edit: 01/28/11 at 22:29:10 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #31 - 01/28/11 at 12:10:13
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Keano wrote on 01/28/11 at 11:27:16:
ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 02:25:41:
I don't think this contradicts the point; I think the idea is that lack of experience with openings which feature lively piece play, with a lot of pieces active on a relatively open board (that does distinguish the Tarrasch from the Lasker, by the way), imposes a relative limitation on a player's rating; i.e. wherever they are, they could have been farther along had they gained this experience early on, and they also may stall more easily at some level if they haven't had it.

I myself don't regard this as a universal truth, but it clearly applies to some people, and it shouldn't be oversimplified. On the other hand, I do think people are too varied to generalize in this way.  Playing in open positions with a lot of pieces is a very important skill, but there are other very important skills in chess, the absence of any one of which can become a limiting factor. Just look at what happens to a player who is afraid of endgames.


Your user name is very apt sir. Food for thought this philosophical stuff.


Indeed. And here is some musical Dualism for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxZo5UODCCg
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #30 - 01/28/11 at 11:27:16
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ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 02:25:41:
I don't think this contradicts the point; I think the idea is that lack of experience with openings which feature lively piece play, with a lot of pieces active on a relatively open board (that does distinguish the Tarrasch from the Lasker, by the way), imposes a relative limitation on a player's rating; i.e. wherever they are, they could have been farther along had they gained this experience early on, and they also may stall more easily at some level if they haven't had it.

I myself don't regard this as a universal truth, but it clearly applies to some people, and it shouldn't be oversimplified. On the other hand, I do think people are too varied to generalize in this way.  Playing in open positions with a lot of pieces is a very important skill, but there are other very important skills in chess, the absence of any one of which can become a limiting factor. Just look at what happens to a player who is afraid of endgames.


Your user name is very apt sir. Food for thought this philosophical stuff.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #29 - 01/28/11 at 10:50:19
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On the contrary you made an excellent recommendation against the exchange with 8...Nh5! which i had spoted myself as a good solution despite the critisism of this aproach by Shandorff. The "problem" with 8...Nh5 though is that White can play Nge2 before Qc2 and i don't think that now Nh5 is so good. 

Anyway, Markovic is right of course about the foundations of the Open games, but we have to agree of what level are we discussing about. If we are discussing on a general project untill a player reaches 2000 then the "Soviet method" i recommended is the most essential and covers many of the essential positions (both open and closed) ine should know. If you ask me about a 1000-1200 player i will say that i prefer him to play the Italian against 1...e5 and the Danish as a secondary weapon in order to understand some basic tactical motifs against f7 for example before he moves on to the Spanish.
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #28 - 01/28/11 at 10:29:11
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BabySnake wrote on 01/28/11 at 10:18:34:
Ametanoitos wrote on 01/27/11 at 17:13:06:
In fact i am in the process of studying now a variation that Mnb proposed for juniors. The Tartakower with a quick b6 (without ...h6) and ...exd5 after White plays cxd5. The same variation is given by Mc Donald as "playable for all of us that are not GMs" and i have started to construct a repertoire with it with the aim to use it in my lessons.


I remember this was discussed on the forum before (possibly as a b6 response to QGD Exchange) but could not find it. Can anyone help me out?

Also, where does McDonald discuss this?


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1295414175/29 , however as my post indicates I don't recommend ...b6 against the Exchange since it's just not any good if White plays well.

  

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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #27 - 01/28/11 at 10:28:46
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #26 - 01/28/11 at 10:18:34
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/27/11 at 17:13:06:
In fact i am in the process of studying now a variation that Mnb proposed for juniors. The Tartakower with a quick b6 (without ...h6) and ...exd5 after White plays cxd5. The same variation is given by Mc Donald as "playable for all of us that are not GMs" and i have started to construct a repertoire with it with the aim to use it in my lessons.


I remember this was discussed on the forum before (possibly as a b6 response to QGD Exchange) but could not find it. Can anyone help me out?

Also, where does McDonald discuss this?
  
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Re: Are there openings everyone should learn first?
Reply #25 - 01/28/11 at 09:50:34
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Willempie wrote on 01/28/11 at 08:54:44:
Plus I see a problem with focusing on specific classical openings. You tend to recognise the patterns specific to those openings, but get completely lost in other open positions.

That's a problem with every repertoire, don't you think? The idea is twofold: don't spend too much time on opening study; expand the horizon (ie replace stuff like the Danish Gambit) as soon as the student has a good feel for these classical openings.
How often does a beginner get positions a la the Lasker?
Moreover I don't think the entire repertoire should necessarily consist of classical openings. I would not call the Benkö classical, would you? Still I know from my own experience that it is a fine choice.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:
Why should a 2000-level player's "supposed understanding of the Najdorf" be inferior to their alleged understanding of the Tarrasch?

Wrong question. Replace 2000 by 1300 and then try to answer it.
Moreover this is not what Markovich wrote. He wrote that this understanding of the Tarrasch is a better foundation for further development than a similar understanding of the Najdorf or the KID.

ReneDescartes wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:25:57:
And there's more than one way to fight a war.

Sure, but even 21st Century soldiers need to master basic skills. And I agree with Markovich that handling Open Games (either with White or Black) is one of them.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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