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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide (Read 22241 times)
CanadianClub
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #67 - 05/22/18 at 07:45:26
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ReneDescartes wrote on 05/20/18 at 14:40:39:
Monocle wrote on 05/20/18 at 09:09:28:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/18 at 01:57:47:
[quote author=684A454A4F424A4568475E492B0 link=1295935986/58#58 date=1526731101]The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB.

This is a skill I struggle with myself, sensing the "elasticity" or "improvability" of a position. It's not even enough to realize once you get there that your position has clearly lower or higher potential for manouvering than your opponent's; you need to see it in advance to be able to prevent or plan it!
I too have this problem. I once had a grandmaster look at one of my games and say "why don't you just let him sit and enjoy the aroma of his position?" Well, though I'd been oppressing my opponent, I wasn't so sure he had nothing.

I imagine noticing this situation is related to what Stigma pointed out earlier, the centrality of  prophylactic thinking. Maybe if we become better at it, when we ask "what is his threat/strategic operation/pawn break," sometimes we will be confident that the answer is "nothing."


My coach says this to me lots of times. My style of play with white tends to focus on total control of the position, gaining space.... so this appears many times. And the great problem to apply this is not doing this (not difficult), but to identify this concrete situation (the opponent has no counterplay, has no available practical idea or plan....). His literal words are: "This is a position to enjoy playing. A positional player like you would love to sit and maneuvre, improving the position little by little because your win will come more often from a mistake from him than for a tactical shot by you". And this is a another skilled theme: "recognize you have nothing, so... patiently do nothing and not throw away your position".

Salut,
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #66 - 05/20/18 at 15:35:00
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I, on the other hand, think that making small improvements and inducing small weaknesses in my opponent's camp is one of the things that I'm very best at.  I'm very good at building.  There's a difference between doing that and "doing nothing," though, and I think that the "doing nothing" idea is overblown in chess.  I find that the great players very rarely do nothing, but are waiting for the right moment to pounce while making small improvements or making their own position more flexible; something like that.  Often Petrosian or Karpov played moves that looked like nothing, but strong annotators like Dvoretsky can (usually) explain the concrete reasons for their moves.  And even Petrosian was excellent at switching to attack when the time was right. 

Dvoretsky helped me to see that you normally only have a limited window of opportunity to convert your advantage, so that you cannot keep improving your position forever (unless your position is truly already winning).  Noticing the moment to strike, and actually prosecuting the attack correctly, takes a different sort of skill.
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #65 - 05/20/18 at 14:40:39
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Monocle wrote on 05/20/18 at 09:09:28:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/18 at 01:57:47:
[quote author=684A454A4F424A4568475E492B0 link=1295935986/58#58 date=1526731101]The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB.

This is a skill I struggle with myself, sensing the "elasticity" or "improvability" of a position. It's not even enough to realize once you get there that your position has clearly lower or higher potential for manouvering than your opponent's; you need to see it in advance to be able to prevent or plan it!
I too have this problem. I once had a grandmaster look at one of my games and say "why don't you just let him sit and enjoy the aroma of his position?" Well, though I'd been oppressing my opponent, I wasn't so sure he had nothing.

I imagine noticing this situation is related to what Stigma pointed out earlier, the centrality of  prophylactic thinking. Maybe if we become better at it, when we ask "what is his threat/strategic operation/pawn break," sometimes we will be confident that the answer is "nothing."
  
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Stigma
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #64 - 05/20/18 at 09:23:22
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Monocle wrote on 05/20/18 at 09:09:28:
Stigma wrote on 05/20/18 at 01:57:47:
CanadianClub wrote on 05/19/18 at 11:58:21:
The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB.

This is a skill I struggle with myself, sensing the "elasticity" or "improvability" of a position. It's not even enough to realize once you get there that your position has clearly lower or higher potential for manouvering than your opponent's; you need to see it in advance to be able to prevent or plan it!

Dorfman has written a bit on this that I've only briefly looked at. But I know people are widely divided on whether his books are great or bad.



I find it's not making improvements to a position that's difficult, but recognising when I should do that, and when I need to act quickly.  I seem to always find that I'm rushing things when I need to be patient, or playing too slowly when I need to act quickly.

Yes, in most cases you have a choice and need to decide. But I was thinking of the somewhat rare cases where one side can't really improve his/her position (attempts to do so would backfire), while the other side can. A very unpleasant situation if you've got the short end of the stick. So it would be better to realize in advance which positions are like that in order to avoid ending up on the wrong side of them. But that's very difficult to do, at least for me.

Monocle wrote on 05/20/18 at 09:09:28:
I find books somewhat frustrating in this regard.  In one position, the player will be chastised for starting an attack without sufficient preparation, while in another virtually indistinguishable position they will be chastised for making slow buildup moves and missing the opportunity to strike.  Rarely is there any insight into how to tell the two positions apart.  I suspect this is probably something a book can't teach.

Quite often the difference depends on concrete calculation, and the author/annotator just made up a story with hindsight that the player broke some abstract principle and that was somehow the real mistake.

If you notice an opportunity to strike and you calculate that it's good for you, of course you should play it no matter what some abstract principle like "don't start an attack without sufficient preparation" would dictate. That principle should make you a bit skeptical and maybe make you check the lines an extra time looking for countersacrifices and counterattacks. But even if your calculations turn out to be less than perfect, you have only yourself to trust at the board. In the worst case, at least you will have learnt something that you can later use to improve.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Monocle
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #63 - 05/20/18 at 09:09:28
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Stigma wrote on 05/20/18 at 01:57:47:
CanadianClub wrote on 05/19/18 at 11:58:21:
The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB.

This is a skill I struggle with myself, sensing the "elasticity" or "improvability" of a position. It's not even enough to realize once you get there that your position has clearly lower or higher potential for manouvering than your opponent's; you need to see it in advance to be able to prevent or plan it!

Dorfman has written a bit on this that I've only briefly looked at. But I know people are widely divided on whether his books are great or bad.



I find it's not making improvements to a position that's difficult, but recognising when I should do that, and when I need to act quickly.  I seem to always find that I'm rushing things when I need to be patient, or playing too slowly when I need to act quickly.

I find books somewhat frustrating in this regard.  In one position, the player will be chastised for starting an attack without sufficient preparation, while in another virtually indistinguishable position they will be chastised for making slow buildup moves and missing the opportunity to strike.  Rarely is there any insight into how to tell the two positions apart.  I suspect this is probably something a book can't teach.
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #62 - 05/20/18 at 01:57:47
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CanadianClub wrote on 05/19/18 at 11:58:21:
The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB.

This is a skill I struggle with myself, sensing the "elasticity" or "improvability" of a position. It's not even enough to realize once you get there that your position has clearly lower or higher potential for manouvering than your opponent's; you need to see it in advance to be able to prevent or plan it!

Dorfman has written a bit on this that I've only briefly looked at. But I know people are widely divided on whether his books are great or bad.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #61 - 05/20/18 at 01:35:41
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/19/18 at 15:49:37:

Now, I realize that there is a lot of "noise" in chess thinking, and lots of extraneous variations are calculated that don't need to be.  I think that one mark of a strong player is the ability to immediately cut through the BS and see what's important in the position.  I think that Ronen Har-Zvi's lectures on the St. Louis Chess Club website are excellent examples of this.  Dvoretsky's books are also excellent examples of this. 

I don't know how to train "seeing though the crap," except to train everything, but it's very important.

My experience matches ErictheRed's here. In my case the mistake is often that I get too worried about a certain plan/idea my opponent might play, and then go out of my way to prevent it, forgetting to consider other equally reasonable ideas for both sides. So looking at too few candidate moves near the root of the tree can lead to a lot of unnecessary thinking and bad play.

According to Dvoretsky you have to somehow sense or find the "essence" of the position. This concept always sounded a bit wishy-washy to me, but maybe we can think of it as the one pattern (among several that apply to a complex position) that's most important for choosing a move. A player can see all the relevant factors in a position but still go wrong if he overvalues some factors and undervalues others.

Of course this largely happens intuitively. So it's hard to give other solutions to developing this skill than looking at a lot of good chess to make sure you have many good patterns stored, and playing as much as feasible to get experience of which factors matter most. Solving exercises carefully chosen by someone like Dvoretsky can't hurt either!

IsaVulpes wrote on 05/18/18 at 01:21:23:
Of course the simplest reply to that is to play a lot of tournaments and at some point it comes by itself, but that is also sadly not the most ..practical.. advice (due to lack of time/tournaments/etc)

What I just wrote also implies it's hard to get around playing a lot if you want to develop a feeling for which factors matter most in a position, as well as all other practical skills really. If you're not able to play as much as you would like, I suggest making a lot of your training as game-like as possible. You will probably never manage to match the importance and emotional investment of an actual tournament, but you could for instance use solitaire books and make a contest out of it, even if it's just against yourself, play grudge matches or arrange solving contests against a friend, play with long time controls over the internet, etc.

Actually the solving method implicit in Khmelnitsky's books is quite game-like, with a set maximum time, writing down the answer for accountability, and a rating scale to make the result matter. You could easily find other books that do more or less the same thing, or apply this method to any set of exercises or games yourself.

And studying some material by Dvoretsky, Rowson or Aagaard on practical chess can't hurt. Or even authors like LeMoir and Webb (Chess for Tigers), though they are more in the "complicate and swindle" school of practical chess.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #60 - 05/20/18 at 01:06:50
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ReneDescartes wrote on 05/18/18 at 14:09:49:
I think this is really excellent.

[...]

Under the harmony-with-yourself category, I would add balancing the  strength of a move against its tendency to create a certain sort of game (as Chernev said, "don't simplify against Capablanca, I keep telling them at the office"). Another such skill is husbanding your physical energy during a game--what to eat, how to sit, etc. For example, I try to sit upright with my arms relaxed and with the spine, rather than the muscles, taking a lot of the weight, so as to save energy for later.

Have to remember "lost a lot of eval." Forget money, forget fame--I'm gonna get me some serious eval.

Glad you liked it. Now if I could only follow my own advice...

Your added skills of keeping both players' style as well as physical energy in mind are very important. I sometimes catch myself stuck in some uncomfortable physical position while playing, likely so intesely focused I've forgotten to move now and then. But concentration is usually a good thing, so there's no easy solution to that one.

The relation between style and move choice happens largely intuitively, i.e. certain moves look appealing to me not just due to objective factors, but also because those kinds of moves and positions have led to good results for me in the past. But both when selecting an opening and at major decision points (possible exchanges, whether to go in for a sacrifice or other complications, offering or accepting a draw etc.) it should be possible to pause and consciously take into account both the opponent's style and your own form on the day.

P.S.: Style also raises the debate on whether we're playing to maximize results short-term or long-term. In the latter case it may be good to consciously go against your own style now and then to expand your horizions/comfort zone, even if short-term your results will likely suffer that way.
« Last Edit: 05/20/18 at 09:41:16 by Stigma »  

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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #59 - 05/19/18 at 15:49:37
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Excellent discussion, and of course all of these practical things are not being tested by Khmelnitsky's book.  There is an art to swindling, to stirring up complications, to setting traps, to not getting into time trouble and making practical choices that keep tension in your opponent's time trouble, to managing stress and fear and other thoughts, etc.  I suspect that this accounts for much of the disparity between Khmelnitsky's estimated rating and one's actual rating, assuming that he's used sound methods in his work.  Of course, there is also the issue of FIDE vs. USCF ratings. 

Some of this discussion brings this to mind: there was a time when I was new to the game and rapidly improving, but had few tournaments to play in.  So I think that I was underrated for a while.  I shot up and over whole hundreds of rating sections a couple of times, going from 1580 to about 1720 in one tournament, for instance, and never dropping below 1700.  Still, improvement seemed to come in large leaps between long periods of almost no rating change.  Partly, this may be how the mind works: we are learning lots of new things, but it takes time and experience to synthesize the new knowledge in such a way that we can perform better over the board. 

I also remember being frustrated for a while that I constantly saw much more than my opponents, yet I would often lose anyway.  I clearly remember one post-mortem where I was going on and on, "I did play 18.x, 19.y, and 20.z because of 23...Nd2!" kind of thing (this basically stopped when I hit 2200).  My opponents in the same class as myself were often amazed at how much I saw compared to them, yet they still won more often that not!  That drove me crazy.

Now, I realize that there is a lot of "noise" in chess thinking, and lots of extraneous variations are calculated that don't need to be.  I think that one mark of a strong player is the ability to immediately cut through the BS and see what's important in the position.  I think that Ronen Har-Zvi's lectures on the St. Louis Chess Club website are excellent examples of this.  Dvoretsky's books are also excellent examples of this. 

I don't know how to train "seeing though the crap," except to train everything, but it's very important.
« Last Edit: 05/20/18 at 15:25:11 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #58 - 05/19/18 at 11:58:21
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This is not simple. As IsaVulpes, my games are always :

- be better, much better usually, out of the opening
- fail to convert

my GM coach says chess is a basically a  practical game. And it is true. The exercises he gives to me are lately concrete positions where some key idea has to be found, to finish the game right now, or to choose the winning way (liquidate to a +/- endgame, put the opponent against a not-easy-to-find defence, etc.). He thinks my knowledge of the game is beyond my opposition knowledge, but practically they are better. The art of doing nothing, patiently micro-improving my position while my opponent has no space to improve is another key I tend to forget OTB. Practicality.

My 5 cents.

  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #57 - 05/19/18 at 09:01:11
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dfan wrote on 05/18/18 at 12:32:09:
There are a couple of books by David LeMoir, called How to Become a Deadly Chess Tactician and How to Be Lucky in Chess, that are all about practical play and which I really like, largely because so much other chess writing tends to take the view that chess is a science or an art rather than a battle. These books never seem to get much attention but I find them very inspiring.


I have How to Become a Deadly Chess Tactician.  Although, like most chess books I own, I've read the first 25% about 5 times but never actually finished it.  Maybe it's time to read that first 25% again...
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #56 - 05/18/18 at 14:09:49
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Stigma wrote on 05/18/18 at 01:57:03:
Neither "practical skills" nor "failing to convert won positions" are simple problems; you need to break them down into more specific issues you can work on. And the only guide to that is what you were actually doing and thinking at the board, especially at those points where you lost a lot of eval.

I know when I fail to win a won position, it's often because of relaxing a bit and getting careless; the very thought "now I must be winning" is simply very dangerous to my focus at the board.[...]

Similarly, "practical skills" include time management, balancing your reliance on intuition vs calculation, being awake and rested for the game, balancing setting problems for the opponent with how much risk you're taking (a very individual balance), staying alert and looking for chances even in bad positions, lots of sports psychology, etc.

I think this is really excellent.

Insofar as they are important and vary, such things simply must lead to discrepancies between rating in play and rating in front of a book: they would be difficult to train with exercises in a book and impossible to test that way, either because they're about finding harmony with yourself, where there can be no answer key, or because they're about social reactions, phenomena in your thinking that only appear in a competition with a living human being.

Under the harmony-with-yourself category, I would add balancing the  strength of a move against its tendency to create a certain sort of game (as Chernev said, "don't simplify against Capablanca, I keep telling them at the office"). Another such skill is husbanding your physical energy during a game--what to eat, how to sit, etc. For example, I try to sit upright with my arms relaxed and with the spine, rather than the muscles, taking a lot of the weight, so as to save energy for later.

Have to remember "lost a lot of eval." Forget money, forget fame--I'm gonna get me some serious eval.
« Last Edit: 05/18/18 at 16:44:23 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #55 - 05/18/18 at 12:32:09
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IsaVulpes wrote on 05/18/18 at 01:21:23:
And yeah, I certainly don't think "practical playing ability" is anything 'bad'.
More like: It's a thing I'd like to have, but I am not quite sure how to attain it, and it is seldomly discussed, despite potentially being the most important actual performance factor - probably because the "practical" aspect is just so difficult to transport through text.

There are a couple of books by David LeMoir, called How to Become a Deadly Chess Tactician and How to Be Lucky in Chess, that are all about practical play and which I really like, largely because so much other chess writing tends to take the view that chess is a science or an art rather than a battle. These books never seem to get much attention but I find them very inspiring.

(By nature I am also a student/researcher rather than a battler.)
  
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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #54 - 05/18/18 at 01:57:03
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@IsaVulpes:
Your posts raise many interesting questions. Unfortunately I'm pressed for time now, so I will have to be a bit brief: [Edit: Yeah right, as if I'm able to write briefly on a topic of interest! Now I'm logging out for the day though  Smiley]

I took a look back at my own notes from the Chess Exam, and I also scored 200 points above my actual FIDE rating. One thing I noted was that three of my known weaknessess at the time were hardly tested at all in the book: Time trouble, taking it too easy against lower-rated opponents, and strategic endgames.

It's very hard to say why you scored better on the test than your actual rating without more information. If you're not doing it already, try combining the Lichess analysis with writing down your thoughts and the lines you looked at during a game. Ideally you should get this down in a database or on paper before you touch an analysis engine. Then you can look at your thinking process in all the positions where you lose significant eval and compare it with engine suggestions (or suggestions from other players if possible). Look for systematic patterns. Are you missing the same kinds of themes or moves over and over? Is there something in the thinking process that goes wrong more than once?

Neither "practical skills" nor "failing to convert won positions" are simple problems; you need to break them down into more specific issues you can work on. And the only guide to that is what you were actually doing and thinking at the board, especially at those points where you lost a lot of eval.

I know when I fail to win a won position, it's often because of relaxing a bit and getting careless; the very thought "now I must be winning" is simply very dangerous to my focus at the board. But it could also be about not seizing tactical chances, making wrong exchanging decisions, especially into endgames, misplaying strategic or technical endgames, not being good enough at attacking play or calculation, etc. With your test score in mind, probably calculation has a lot to do with it? There comes a decisive point in most games where you have to go in for some concrete lines or else your advantage disappears.

Similarly, "practical skills" include time management, balancing your reliance on intuition vs calculation, being awake and rested for the game, balancing setting problems for the opponent with how much risk you're taking (a very individual balance), staying alert and looking for chances even in bad positions, lots of sports psychology, etc. I find Jacob Aagaard has useful things to say about sports psychology in chess, i.e. in Excelling at Chess. I haven't read his recent Thinking Inside the Box though. Jonathan Rowson too, but I liked Chess for Zebras a lot better than The Seven Deadly Chess Sins.

If you really get stuck trying to figure this out, a coach could probably help.

Edit 2: A final thought: From personal experience the difference between different levels quite often comes down to how good people are at prophylactic thinking, including how deeply and consistently they do it at the board. Would recommend reading up on that if you haven't already. Dvoretsky had a great, classical chapter on it in Secrets of Positional Play and now also an entire book I believe. Aagaard, Rowson and many others also discuss it. The experience of being "out-prophylactized" can involve the frustrating feeling that "I foresaw what he was going to do, but just too late to stop it without negative consequences". I notice you did alright on "Recognizing threats", "Defense" and Counterattack" on the test, but there are many levels to prophylaxis.
« Last Edit: 05/18/18 at 11:20:07 by Stigma »  

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Re: Your results in Chess Exam and Training Guide
Reply #53 - 05/18/18 at 01:47:41
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/17/18 at 22:07:48:
I am guessing you have a rather sharp style which is perfect for beating up on lower rateds and equally well suited for losing to higher rateds.
IsaVulpes wrote on 05/17/18 at 23:06:39:
Actually no idea what my 'style' is; if I had to classify myself it would perhaps be "classical"? I am most comfortable in reasonably simple positions where I have the center and/or a space advantage; not a big fan of 'diceroll'-games (opposite side pawnstorms / hackattacking) or ones where I am cramped and have to fiddle around with awkward pieces while banking on some kind of latent dynamic potential.

Wow. What a bad guess on my part. Carry on.
  
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