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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: French Advance - solid lines for Black? (Read 83850 times)
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #30 - 04/28/11 at 17:13:43
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That's the Wade variation, cynima. It had a resurgence of popularity in the late 1980s when White found several ways to gain an advantage. One of White's critical ideas is a timely c4!

Black's attempt to get rid of the light-squared bishop even at the cost of several tempi makes sense, but it just doesnt' quite work out for Black against best play.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #29 - 04/28/11 at 13:47:41
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Why not 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 intending ...Bb5?
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #28 - 04/21/11 at 22:01:08
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MNb wrote on 03/04/11 at 21:36:32:

In contrast with Stigma I start thinking about winning chances after 3.e5. Another game of me was quickly drawn though after 5...Qb6 6.a4 c4.


I just noticed this comment and had to smile. There's nothing more beautiful than the French when everything works for Black. All I wanted was a quiet backup line, which isn't a crime... In my defence, I still prefer Uhlmann's aggressive lines against 3.e5 on most (good) days  Wink

Thanks for sharing your game, a nice effort!
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #27 - 03/04/11 at 21:36:32
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It doesn't look necessary to open a new thread for this game I just finished. It adds to my fine results in the French as long White doesn't play 3.Nc3. I decided to try another Moskalenko recommendation and it paid off. I am especially proud that I valued my chances after exchanging Queens correctly.

Marconi,R - MNb [C02]
em CL/2010/C2, 2010

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nh6 6.Bd3 f6 7.exf6 gxf6 8.0-0 Nf7 9.Re1 Be7 10.Bc2 Qb6 11.Re2 Bd7 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.b4 Be7 14.Bf4 a5 15.Be3 Qc7 16.b5 Nce5 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 18.b6 Qc6 19.f4 Ng4 20.Bd4 e5 21.fxe5 fxe5 22.Bxe5 Nxe5 23.Rxe5 0-0-0 24.Kh1 Bc5 25.Nd2 Bxb6 26.Nf3 Qxc3 27.Rb1 Bc7 28.Qxd5 Bc6 29.Qe6+ Kb8 30.Be4 Rd6 31.Qf5 Rhd8 32.Bxc6 Qxc6 33.Ree1 h6 34.Ne5 Qd5 35.Qc2 Re6 36.Nf3 Rdd6 37.Rec1 Rc6 38.Qb2 Rxc1+ 39.Rxc1 Bb6 40.Rb1 Ka7 41.Rc1 Re3 42.Rb1 Qe6 43.Qb5 Re2 44.a4 Re4 45.h3 Qc6 46.Qxc6 bxc6 47.Ra1 c5 48.g4 c4 49.Rc1 Be3 50.Rc2 Kb6 51.Nh4 Kc5 52.Nf5 Bg5 53.h4 Bf6 54.Nxh6 Bxh4 55.Kg2 Bg5 56.Nf7 Kb4 57.Kg3 Re3+ 58.Kf2 Bf4 59.Nd6 c3 60.Nb5 Rh3 61.Ke2 Kc4 

and White thought it necessary to soldier on for another 30 moves with 62.Nxc3.
0-1

In contrast with Stigma I start thinking about winning chances after 3.e5. Another game of me was quickly drawn though after 5...Qb6 6.a4 c4.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #26 - 02/05/11 at 21:23:01
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Stigma wrote on 02/05/11 at 21:09:26:
And thanks for your comments, it's appreciated. I'm sorry I got a little bit annoyed.

Don't bother, I was responding to both you and Dom. As a result I had forgotten about your OP. Not that smart of me.

Anyhow, I can't see any objection to your line a) from that OP. I think it's slightly superior to 5...Nge7 as Black even in a quiet setup wants to target pawn d4 and 5...Nge7 makes it easier for White to play the Bishop to d3 in one go.
I know I have written it before: Moskalenko does a very fine job on 6.a3 c4.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #25 - 02/05/11 at 21:09:26
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MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 21:01:54:

Instead it seems that you are trying your best to confuse me. I never recommended 6...Nh6 to you, did I? This is exactly why I assumed you wanting to play 6...cxd4 first.


Right. 6...cxd4 first avoids 6...Nh6 7.Bxh6, and 7...Nge7 next avoids Bd3xf5. There's no point in avoiding the dubious gambit 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Bxh6?!, but there is a practical point to being able to avoid the Bxf5 structure.

MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 21:01:54:

But see the edited version of my previous post, where I showed a way to avoid both the Bxh6 and Bxf5 stuff altogether. Or let me repeat it: despite misunderstandings I am really trying to be helpful.

All in all it seems that 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.Bd3 Bd7 9.Bc2 Nb4 then should suit you best.

I agree that's the line - I already pointed out in the very first post that 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.Bd3?! Bd7 must be good for Black - it's a Milner Barry Gambit position with an extra tempo. So Black does indeed force White to give up on the Bxf5 ideas, and can choose not to learn those structures to limit the amount of work needed, or at least the variety of position types he has to master.

And thanks for your comments, it's appreciated. I'm sorry I got a little bit annoyed.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #24 - 02/05/11 at 21:01:54
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Stigma wrote on 02/05/11 at 20:54:18:
Now it seems you are trying your best to misunderstand me. 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Bxh6?! is not the issue. When I said Black avoids Bxh6 gxh6 structures, I was thinking of the immediate 6...Nh6, where 7.Bxh6 is indeed critical (but still playable for Black).

Instead it seems that you are trying your best to confuse me. I never recommended 6...Nh6 to you, did I? This is exactly why I assumed you wanting to play 6...cxd4 first.
But see the edited version of my previous post, where I showed a way to avoid both the Bxh6 and Bxf5 stuff altogether. Or let me repeat it: despite misunderstandings I am really trying to be helpful.

All in all it seems that 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.Bd3 Bd7 9.Bc2 Nb4 then should suit you best.

Of course this implies answering 6.a3 with c4, as this line won't work after 6.a3.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #23 - 02/05/11 at 20:54:18
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Now it seems you are trying your best to misunderstand me. 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Bxh6?! is not the issue. When I said Black avoids Bxh6 gxh6 structures, I was thinking of the immediate 6...Nh6, where 7.Bxh6 is indeed critical (but still playable for Black).

Even if both the Bxf5 exf5 structure and the standard structure with no Bxf5 are playable, it's useful for Black to make the choice and not leave that decision to White!

The 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Bd3 that dom mentioned is considered critical by at least some strong White players. Either they think the Bxf5 positions are promising for White in general, or there's an argument that the queen is worse on b6 somehow. These are really the only two logical possibilities. I frankly don't know which interpretation is right.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #22 - 02/05/11 at 20:45:58
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Well, I think denying White an opportunity to play a dubious gambit not much of an advantage indeed.
But if you do, yes, then 7...Nge7 is more precise indeed.

Your enthusiasm for 5...Nge7 puzzles me more though. Why would the Queen be better on d8 than on b6 ? Can't the bishop on e6 protect pawn d5 on its own?

All in all it seems that 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.Bd3 Bd7 9.Bc2 Nb4 then should suit you best.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #21 - 02/05/11 at 20:42:30
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MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 20:34:31:
MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:15:30:
I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


Stigma wrote on 02/05/11 at 14:24:35:
Exactly that (8.Bd3) was what I wanted to avoid by instead putting the N on e7: 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7!?; see my original post. Black will get his knight to f5 without any Bxh6 or Bxf5 opportunities.

Perhaps you are really desperate to avoid any Bxh6 opportunity, but 7...Nh6 8.Bxh6 doesn't seem to be the optimal version. Or why would Black win half of the games?
The latter remark (about Bxf5) I find a bit peculiar given your enthusiasm for 5...Nge7. You see, 6.Bd3 Nf5 provides White with the same 7.Bxf5 opportunity - with at least one extra tempo.

It's well known that 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Bxh6?! is dubious; that's not the issue. I think the argument is that in the Bxf5 exf5 structure the queen is as good or better on d8 as on b6. 

While 5...Nge7 is likely playable, the point of the 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 move order was that Black gets to decide which structure is reached. Surely you can see the practical advantage of that?
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #20 - 02/05/11 at 20:34:31
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MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:15:30:
I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


Stigma wrote on 02/05/11 at 14:24:35:
Exactly that (8.Bd3) was what I wanted to avoid by instead putting the N on e7: 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7!?; see my original post. Black will get his knight to f5 without any Bxh6 or Bxf5 opportunities.

Perhaps you are really desperate to avoid any Bxh6 opportunity, but 7...Nh6 8.Bxh6 doesn't seem to be the optimal version. Or why would Black win half of the games?
But indeed, it had not escaped me that with 7...Nge7 Black can deny White the chance to play a dubious gambit.
The latter remark (about Bxf5) I find quite peculiar given your enthusiasm for 5...Nge7. You see, 6.Bd3 Nf5 provides White with the same 7.Bxf5 opportunity - with an extra tempo (Black will lose a tempo with Bd7-e6 as well).
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #19 - 02/05/11 at 18:45:23
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dom wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:47:36:
MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:15:30:
I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


I prefer for White: 8.Bd3!? (Harikrishna-Meier,Merida 2007 chesspublishing, update december 2007) ....


I love this line.

6. Be2
8. Bd3
9. Bc2
and (if Black plays ... Nf5)
10. Bxf5.

What's all that rubbish about only moving a piece once in the opening?  Cheesy Grin
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #18 - 02/05/11 at 15:14:16
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dom wrote on 02/04/11 at 21:26:22:
Stigma wrote on 02/03/11 at 14:59:50:

b) 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Be2 Nge7 7.0-0! (7.Na3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc2 Qb6 is once again OK) 7...Nf5!? as mentioned by Williams on his DVD - I don't trust Watson's 7...Ng6 as a solid option. Now 8.Bd3 looks critical, when Curt Hansen once played 8...Nh4!?. After an exchange on h4 Black can reateat the queen to d8 followed by ...Be7 with a solid position. Instead Williams gives 8...cxd4 9.Bxf5 exf5 but now doesn't mention 10.Nxd4!? which looks like the more dangerous recapture to me.

Why is theory so limited on these lines, and does anybody know ways for White to punish them? 


Just start reading the thread (please, forgive me..I have not yet read next posts).


I have recorded:

9.Ng5!? (Kupreichik-Levitt,Badenweiler 1990 (NIC CD YB 50)) cxd4 10.Qh5 Nxe5 11.Nxe6 Bxe6 12.Qxe5 with a small advantage for White  (maybe because of Black king safety)


Maybe instead of that line, Black should accept some kingside weaknesses with 9.Ng5 g6!?, i.e. 10.g3 h6!? 11.Nxf7 Kxf7 12.gxh4 Qxh4 unclear, Or 10.Qg4 Nf5. But then the position is not so solid anymore of course.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #17 - 02/05/11 at 14:27:09
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dom wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:25:28:
linksspringer wrote on 02/04/11 at 21:48:18:
Just FYI, there is an article on chess.com about 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nge7.
http://blog.chess.com/mizant/french-advance-variation-with-5nge7
Not the same, but still an interesting read.


Very interesting system survey.
I want to know more about this line: 6.Na3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nf5 8.Nc2 Qa5!? 9.Bd2 Qb6 10.Bc3 Bd7 11.Bd3 Be7 12.oo a5 and now 13.Bxf5 exf5 14.Ne3 Be6 15.g3


Interesting indeed, thanks for the link! I will reconsider 5...Nge7 in addition to 5..Qb6 as a solid option. I never really studied the Bxf5 exf5 structures, but they're not prone to immediate tactical mess I guess. So woud fit my goals for a solid, dependable Black repertoire.

Looking at the survey and also recent practice, 5...Nge7 6.a3 Nf5 (!) 7.b4 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bd7 9.Bb2 b5 seems to be the critical line. Strangely I cannot find this position mentioned anywhere in Collins' book, but Houdini seems happy with the Black position, even sacrificing the b-pawn in some lines.
  
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Re: French Advance - solid lines for Black?
Reply #16 - 02/05/11 at 14:24:35
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dom wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:47:36:
MNb wrote on 02/05/11 at 11:15:30:
I have to repeat my question: what about 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (a move Anand did not play now nor later) 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 8.Nc3 Nf5 ?


I prefer for White: 8.Bd3!? (Harikrishna-Meier,Merida 2007 chesspublishing, update december 2007) Bd7 (8..Nf5 9.Bxf5 exf5 10.Nc3 Be6 11.Ne2 h6 12.h4 ooo (Benjamin-Shaked,Kona 1998 (Watson)) 13.Kf1 Kb8 14.Kg1 Be7 15.h5 Rc8 16.Rb1 a6 17.a3 Na5 18.b3 Rc7 19.Nf4 Rhc8 20.Bd2 b6 21.a4 Nc6 22.Rh3! +=) 9.Bc2


Exactly that (8.Bd3) was what I wanted to avoid by instead putting the N on e7: 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nge7!?; see my original post. Black will get his knight to f5 without any Bxh6 or Bxf5 opportunities. 

Now 8.Nc3 Nf5 9.Na4 (9.Kf1!? Collins) 9...Qa5+ 10.Bd2 Bb4 11.Bc3 b5 (or 11...a6 as played by Kasimdzhanov and Barsov) 12.a3 Bxc3+ 14.Nxc3 b4 15.axb4 Qxb4 is solid and considered OK for Black by both Collins and McDonald. 

Collins also covers 8.b3 Nf5 9.Bb2 Bb4+ 10.Kf1 by the way, but this also looks OK for Black to me.
  
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