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Poll closed Question: NEW POLL! Who will win the Candidates?
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Boris Gelfand    
  6 (17.1%)
Gata Kamsky    
  5 (14.3%)
Vladimir Kramnik    
  21 (60.0%)
Alexander Grischuk    
  3 (8.6%)




Total votes: 35
« Created by: Smyslov_Fan on: 05/11/11 at 02:56:26 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012 (Read 102643 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #268 - 06/01/11 at 15:37:20
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So there's no money for a longer match, and little chance of attracting sponsors due to the desultory nature of the chess produced by the current format...that's some catch, that Catch-22....
  

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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #267 - 06/01/11 at 15:08:21
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Are there really bunnies out there?

Topalov, Kamsky, Mamedyarov, Grischuk, Kramnik, Gelfand, Radjabov and Aronian all looked very strong and there wasn't much between them (granted, maybe the short matches contributed to this impression). Of course, all is relative, but I don't think there would be anyone who'd have got anything worse than, say, -4 in a double round robin.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #266 - 06/01/11 at 13:44:05
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It makes sense that longer matches will require greater prize funds. This isn't because the result would be any less important, but because logisitically, it would be very difficult to host a series of long matches as a single event. 

If each round is its own event, or more pragmatically, if the quarterfinals and semis are one event and that candidate finals are another event, the players who advance to the second event will need to be compensated for that second event. 

Still, I far prefer long matches to tournaments. A tournament is often won by the bunny-killer who keeps his losses to a minimum. This does not separate the two best players as clearly as a match does. 

I agree completely with Kramnik that the tie-break system itself was not bad. Rather, the tie-breaks came too soon. The football equivalent is to have overtime be 30 minutes long, but the regulation match is also only 30 minutes long. In such a situation, the better penalty kicking team will usually win.

In close games, most goals are scored after the 60th minute. In close matches, the decisive games are usually played when the two players are tired. 

I'm still opposed to the Sophia rule, but perhaps not allowing a draw before the 25th move would make some sense. 

But what would happen in cases of a three-fold repetition at move 15?  Could the players just shuffle the pieces back and forth for 10 moves ( or 15 or 25 moves) before agreeing to the draw? 

I'm still opposed to the Sophia rule. The players should be free to decide how to play their own game. Longer matches will make Grischuk's strategy in this Candidates' tournament much too risky to be worth trying.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #265 - 06/01/11 at 10:42:21
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Tricklev wrote on 06/01/11 at 10:12:04:
I'm having a hard time believing that Kramnik wouldn't have showed up, if the price founds was the same, and it was 8 games instead of 4. It's still a ticket to the WC-match.

Maybe, we don't know. Fact is Carlsen didn't show up so the pricemoney today wasn't appealing enough for him to put aside his objections.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #264 - 06/01/11 at 10:12:04
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I'm having a hard time believing that Kramnik wouldn't have showed up, if the price founds was the same, and it was 8 games instead of 4. It's still a ticket to the WC-match.
  
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brabo
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #263 - 06/01/11 at 09:58:14
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snits wrote on 06/01/11 at 09:19:00:
brabo wrote on 06/01/11 at 06:49:34:
snits wrote on 06/01/11 at 04:14:59:
Kramnik interview about Kazan up on chessbase:

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7262

I disagree with him that longer matches of 6 to 8 games instead of 4 should have more prize money. 

Well, I would love to be your employer. It is a dream for employers to have employees willing to do extra work and work in their holidays without being extra paid. In fact that is what you are asking from the chessprofessionals. They should work more (playing more games) for the same salary. 
We are not anymore in the pre-Fischer era where prices were only symbolic and players were mainly playing for honor. 

As can be read between the lines in the Kramnik interview, here lays the real problem with the WC. In the end it always is about money. If one wants to get a wc with long matches like before then today a lot of money must be put on the table. As can be seen from the last 20 years, this isn't easy. I would even say, last 20 years prove that fide can't find the money for such kind of formats. The WC is in a crisis already for a very long time and it won't be solved immediately. I suggest that we just try to enjoy what we get today as nobody of us is able or is willing to come up with the millions for a more serious wc.


It is not about doing extra work without extra pay. It is about not correctly judging the financial value of your work to begin with. 

He played 13 classical games at Tata Steel and ended up in 5th place. What should he have been paid for that effort since he got 60,000 for Kazan? According to you unless he was paid more at Tata than Kazan he was being robbed and working for free.


You are here comparing apples with oranges. The topplayers prepare themselves for Tata not more than 1 month (Svidler even admitted that he sometimes just prepared himself during the tournament). Kazan takes many months of preparation together with secondants,... It is obvious that the topplayers want a much higher fee/ game played in Kazan compared with a game in Tata. Also the number of games is important as more games means that you need to have more preparation to do. As you probably don't realize, in each game the players try to surprise so they need to have for each extra game something new. So again I find it very normal that the salary/game in Kazan is much higher than in any other toptournament. 

Personally I am also not going to do a job with more importance for the same salary as before. Topmanagers also work for many times more salary than their employees. Not because they do many times more hours but just because of the importance of their function.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #262 - 06/01/11 at 09:19:00
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brabo wrote on 06/01/11 at 06:49:34:
snits wrote on 06/01/11 at 04:14:59:
Kramnik interview about Kazan up on chessbase:

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7262

I disagree with him that longer matches of 6 to 8 games instead of 4 should have more prize money. 

Well, I would love to be your employer. It is a dream for employers to have employees willing to do extra work and work in their holidays without being extra paid. In fact that is what you are asking from the chessprofessionals. They should work more (playing more games) for the same salary. 
We are not anymore in the pre-Fischer era where prices were only symbolic and players were mainly playing for honor. 

As can be read between the lines in the Kramnik interview, here lays the real problem with the WC. In the end it always is about money. If one wants to get a wc with long matches like before then today a lot of money must be put on the table. As can be seen from the last 20 years, this isn't easy. I would even say, last 20 years prove that fide can't find the money for such kind of formats. The WC is in a crisis already for a very long time and it won't be solved immediately. I suggest that we just try to enjoy what we get today as nobody of us is able or is willing to come up with the millions for a more serious wc.


It is not about doing extra work without extra pay. It is about not correctly judging the financial value of your work to begin with. 

He played 13 classical games at Tata Steel and ended up in 5th place. What should he have been paid for that effort since he got 60,000 for Kazan? According to you unless he was paid more at Tata than Kazan he was being robbed and working for free.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #261 - 06/01/11 at 06:49:34
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snits wrote on 06/01/11 at 04:14:59:
Kramnik interview about Kazan up on chessbase:

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7262

I disagree with him that longer matches of 6 to 8 games instead of 4 should have more prize money. 

Well, I would love to be your employer. It is a dream for employers to have employees willing to do extra work and work in their holidays without being extra paid. In fact that is what you are asking from the chessprofessionals. They should work more (playing more games) for the same salary. 
We are not anymore in the pre-Fischer era where prices were only symbolic and players were mainly playing for honor. 

As can be read between the lines in the Kramnik interview, here lays the real problem with the WC. In the end it always is about money. If one wants to get a wc with long matches like before then today a lot of money must be put on the table. As can be seen from the last 20 years, this isn't easy. I would even say, last 20 years prove that fide can't find the money for such kind of formats. The WC is in a crisis already for a very long time and it won't be solved immediately. I suggest that we just try to enjoy what we get today as nobody of us is able or is willing to come up with the millions for a more serious wc.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #260 - 06/01/11 at 04:14:59
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Kramnik interview about Kazan up on chessbase:

http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7262

I disagree with him that longer matches of 6 to 8 games instead of 4 should have more prize money. 
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #259 - 05/26/11 at 14:54:50
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blueguitar322 wrote on 05/26/11 at 13:25:58:
chk wrote on 05/26/11 at 11:13:15:
I think it is also nerves and in this field imo Anand is definitely stronger (and more experienced in WCh circumstances) than Gelfand.

Gelfand was down 2.0-1.0 going into the final rapid game with Kamsky and needing a win with Black. Not only did he convincingly defeat Kamsky in that game, but he won both tiebreak blitz games going away.

I'm not sure if rapids/blitz or classical time controls are a better test of nerves, but that was (if I recall correctly) the only time he was truly facing elimination, and he definitely rose to meet the challenge.

One circumstance a pattern does not make, but this is a guy who (like Anand) has been playing the best in the world for the last 20 years. I think he has a fighting chance.


Of course he has a chance and he has a fighting spirit and nerves of steel etc. But I was considering these small details that ultimately determine things in a WCh. And I think the pressure there is unique, e.g. remember in ElistaTopalov losing 2 games in a row to Kramnik, starting from winning positions..

It is my impression that Anand has the stronger nerves (mostly based on the way I have seen him defending when under great pressure) and he also has the plus of previous experience in WChs.

As for checking Gelfand's nerves, I opine that a better indication is the (good) way he defended some inferior Rook endings, rather than the rapid & blitz games where he managed to change the tide.
  

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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #258 - 05/26/11 at 13:29:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/26/11 at 12:57:19:
Since 2001, Anand has won precisely one game in classical time controls against Gelfand. He's going to be a tough out.


Wasn't Gelfands last win in 1993?

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Yes, I still favor Anand over Gelfand, and I am rooting for the defending champion. I'd even like to see Anand dominate him. A +2 score in such a short match should be sufficient to suggest that he is a class above Gelfand.  It would also solidify his position as a great world champion.  

But I expect the match to be very close.


Agreed.
  

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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #257 - 05/26/11 at 13:25:58
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chk wrote on 05/26/11 at 11:13:15:
I think it is also nerves and in this field imo Anand is definitely stronger (and more experienced in WCh circumstances) than Gelfand.

Gelfand was down 2.0-1.0 going into the final rapid game with Kamsky and needing a win with Black. Not only did he convincingly defeat Kamsky in that game, but he won both tiebreak blitz games going away.

I'm not sure if rapids/blitz or classical time controls are a better test of nerves, but that was (if I recall correctly) the only time he was truly facing elimination, and he definitely rose to meet the challenge.

One circumstance a pattern does not make, but this is a guy who (like Anand) has been playing the best in the world for the last 20 years. I think he has a fighting chance.
  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #256 - 05/26/11 at 12:57:19
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Some things to consider when making predictions:

Since 2001, Anand has won precisely one game in classical time controls against Gelfand. He's going to be a tough out. 

We have no clue really how Gelfand will play in the Finals because he's never been there and we don't yet know who his seconds are. 

We also don't know how Anand will react to the pressures of his new family. 

Yes, I still favor Anand over Gelfand, and I am rooting for the defending champion. I'd even like to see Anand dominate him. A +2 score in such a short match should be sufficient to suggest that he is a class above Gelfand.  It would also solidify his position as a great world champion.  

But I expect the match to be very close.

  
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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #255 - 05/26/11 at 11:13:15
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Maybe, I say maybe, we will have a chance to see the Sicilian again in a WCh

edit: response to the previous poster: it is not only opening preparation & seconds. I think it is also nerves and in this field imo Anand is definitely stronger (and more experienced in WCh circumstances) than Gelfand.
  

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Re: Candidate matches 2011 for WC 2012
Reply #254 - 05/26/11 at 10:00:45
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Gelfand does have a decent chance of defeating Vishy- his Black openings have stood up very well . He will need a strong anti-Grunfeld. 
Opening prep is the key- if he gets decents seconds and support he might just do it.
  
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