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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights? (Read 104132 times)
micawber
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #11 - 02/19/11 at 17:46:06
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Moderators! Allert
I see sloughter is back on his old game.
If I am not mistaken he was banned from this forum after spamming a two-knights thread on Chesspub two years back.

My comments refer to this thread,
which actually had to be closed because it totally got out of hand
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1230634273
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #10 - 02/19/11 at 17:08:26
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/19/11 at 13:09:36:
The real test of the Fritz-Ulvestad is not 8.Ne4 but 8.cxd4! with all lines being about +/- at the moment, until someone show me I am wrong.

Which in the past was based on the Queen Exchange 10.Qf3 Bb7 11.0-0 Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3. But I also seem to remember you agreeing that in the 10...exd4 lines White's advantage was not that clear.
So while I agree with you that 8.cxd4! is critical I also think that you are too gloomy. But being it siesta time I will not look at this systemetically before tomorrow (also because I can't find anything against 10.0-0 exd4 11.d3 at the moment).
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #9 - 02/19/11 at 14:42:41
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/19/11 at 13:09:36:
The real test of the Fritz-Ulvestad is not 8.Ne4 but 8.cxd4! with all lines being about +/- at the moment, until someone show me I am wrong. But the main line with ..Na5 is still the line to beat.


There are a number of tries for Black in the 5...Na5 lines so I will attempt to prune them one by one. After 5...Na5 White should continue 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3! I will provide the score of some games I have played against Fritz 12. The only variation where Black gets equalizing chances is 8...Be7! Everything else looks pretty good for Black. Against Fritz 12 here, play rapidly became equal after 9.Bd3! (Forced). Everything else loses. I will provide the score of the game later. For now here is a line for White that gives him a slight plus in the 8...h6 line. Here is a game where I played Fritz 12 120'40 60'20 '30.

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Ba4! (This makes it difficult for Black to equalize) Be7 11.d3 O-O 12.O-O f5 13.Ng3 Be6 14.Nc3 Rb8 15.Bb3 The point the Black Rook on b8 is a problem for White if he can't develop his Queen Bishop. By shielding the b-file White can develop normally + get the benefit of the open a-file. 15...Qd7 16.Qe2 Nxb3 17.axb3 Bd6 18.Bd2 Nb4 19.Rfc1 c5 20.f3 Rf7 21.Nf1 Nc6 22.Qe1 Qc7 23.Be3 Nd4 24.Kh1 Be7 & Black is trying to find a plan. White is slightly better and must figure out a way to mobilize his Queenside pawns. Whether g5 is playable is problematic. If Black can't get in g5 he is just worse.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #8 - 02/19/11 at 14:28:34
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/19/11 at 13:09:36:
The real test of the Fritz-Ulvestad is not 8.Ne4 but 8.cxd4! with all lines being about +/- at the moment, until someone show me I am wrong. But the main line with ..Na5 is still the line to beat.

Arkein is may not be right about 5...Na5; the Fried Liver is looking very good for Black because of a key innovation in the Lolli Variation that appeared recently in Chess Life. Suffice it to say that after 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4!! is extremely complicated with many variations favoring Black.Just castling doesn't do much for White after 7.O-O f6 (or c6)= to +/=. There is nothing better for White here. If White tries 7.c3, then b5 is perfectly playable. e.g. 8.cxd4? Bb4ch & Fritz likes Black.

What is a new try for White that the player of the Black pieces is going to have memorize is 5...Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3! instead of a3; not there is nothing better for Black than c6 10.a3 Na6 with a complex position where 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 with about an equal game but this is very difficult to play OTB because perfect play is required of Black and White has a number of plans that require very little thought.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #7 - 02/19/11 at 13:09:36
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The real test of the Fritz-Ulvestad is not 8.Ne4 but 8.cxd4! with all lines being about +/- at the moment, until someone show me I am wrong. But the main line with ..Na5 is still the line to beat.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #6 - 02/19/11 at 12:50:55
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Matemax wrote on 02/14/11 at 17:23:42:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/14/11 at 16:26:00:
OTB play 4...Bc5 and watch your opponent's face fall Wink

... and hope that they don't have the "2 knights" DVD from Trent - dark clouds for Mr. Traxler there...


I have beaten Fritz 8 with White in the Traxler and got a completing winning endgame against Fritz 12. Here is the simplest cook of the Traxler:

4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3! (Bd5 is a red herring; Bb3 is just winning) 6...Rf8 (Qf8 is also +/- Nb4 7.c3 Nxb3 8.Qxc3 & Here Fritz plays Qg8. White can enter a slightly better endgame with 9.Qxg8 or stay in a highly favorable middle game with  9.Qc2) 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bg4 9.Nf3 Bxe3 (This just loses; Black cannot allow me to contest the f-file) 10.fxe3 Qd7 (You will note that Black cannot walk his King East) 11.Nbd2 (+-) Rae8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.O-O-O Kc8 14.h3! Be6 15.g4! Kb8 16.Kb1! Bxb3 17.Nxb3 h6 18.Rdf1 g5?? (This is a horrible positional blunder) 19.Rf2 Re7 20.Rhf1 Ref7 21.Nh2! a5 22.Nd2 Qe6 (Trying for a cheap shot) 23.a3 Nd7 24.Rxf7 Rxf7 25.Rxf7 Qxf7 26.Qf3 Qg7 (Basically useless but Black has no moves) 27.Ndf1 (Heading for the f5 square) Nc5 28.Ng3 b6 29.Nh5 Qe7 30.Qf6 Qxf6 31.Nxf6 Ne7 32.Nf1 Kc8 33.Ng3 Nd7 34.Nxd7 Kxd7 35.Nf5 Ng8 & Black is in zugzwang. I created connected passed pawns on the Kingside and a passed pawn on the a-file but blew the ending and only drew.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #5 - 02/19/11 at 12:26:12
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/14/11 at 14:50:57:
After having tried several options I'm still not sure what to do against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5. 

My preference has been the Fritz variation: 4. ... d5 5.ed5: Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nd5: but after 8.Ne4(!), 8. ... Qh4 is suspect after 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3, and after 8. ... Ne6 9.Bb5:+ I'm not sure if black has enough for the pawn. 

Because of this problem I've looked at several other options for black like Ulvestadt (5. ... b5!?) and 5. ... Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7, but haven't found anything entirely satisfactory yet. 

What do you guys think - should I stick to the Fritz, or is there another variation you can recommend?       


For the record, Dr. Hans Berliner missed three winning strategies in the Berliner Variation for White. After 8...Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2!! Be6 (12...O-O 13.fxg3 is a simple win for White after 13...Bxg3ch 14.Kd1 Black has nothing close to adequate compensation for the piece).

After 12...Be6 the winning strategies for White in ascending order of degree of ease that are winning for White:

1) 13.fxe4?? is book and the worst choice after 13...Nb4. Since this is the square Black wants to put his Knight, why force Black to play a strong move?

2)13.Qf2?! This wins but only if you are a computer playing a human. There are no basic patterns so it has to be crunched without pattern recognition,

3) 13.Nc3!? This is a simple win after 13...Nxc3 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 (Black can stay a piece down with 16...Bd7 17.Qe5ch Be6 18.d5 O-O 19.dxe6 but Black is still down a piece with a much simpler position to play than the main line.

4)What may be new to theory is incredible if it has been missed 13.Qxb5ch!! Here is the score of a game I played against Fritz 12 at 120'40 60'20 '30.

13.Qxb5ch Kd8 14.fxe4 a6 15.Qd3 Nb4 16.Qc3 Nxa2 17.Rxa2 Bxg3ch 18.hxg3 Qxe4ch 19.Kf2 Bxa2 20.Na3 Qf5ch 21.Qf3 Qxf3 22.gxf3 f6 23.Bc4 Bxc4 24.Nxc4 & Fritz says that this is +-.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #4 - 02/14/11 at 17:23:42
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/14/11 at 16:26:00:
OTB play 4...Bc5 and watch your opponent's face fall Wink

... and hope that they don't have the "2 knights" DVD from Trent - dark clouds for Mr. Traxler there...
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #3 - 02/14/11 at 16:26:00
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OTB play 4...Bc5 and watch your opponent's face fall Wink
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #2 - 02/14/11 at 16:24:08
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/14/11 at 14:50:57:
after 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bb5:+ I'm not sure if black has enough for the pawn.

Do you have a particular line in mind? I think Black does have enough.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #1 - 02/14/11 at 15:23:23
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GM Gustafsson is also not sure, if there is really equality after 4.Ng5 on his DVD
  
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C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights?
02/14/11 at 14:50:57
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After having tried several options I'm still not sure what to do against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5. 

My preference has been the Fritz variation: 4. ... d5 5.ed5: Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nd5: but after 8.Ne4(!), 8. ... Qh4 is suspect after 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3, and after 8. ... Ne6 9.Bb5:+ I'm not sure if black has enough for the pawn. 

Because of this problem I've looked at several other options for black like Ulvestadt (5. ... b5!?) and 5. ... Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7, but haven't found anything entirely satisfactory yet. 

What do you guys think - should I stick to the Fritz, or is there another variation you can recommend?       
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 18:51:18 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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