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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights? (Read 104139 times)
Fllg
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #86 - 03/06/11 at 15:59:30
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In this line the position after 15.Qe3 looks quite disorganized for White an instead of taking on g2 Black may do better to keep the initiative with 15... f5 intending to push forward against the poor king on e1. Black has at least decent compensation if not more.

To play moves like 12.a3 and 13. b4 while underdeveloped is surely asking for punishment.
  
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sloughter
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #85 - 03/06/11 at 13:31:18
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MNb wrote on 03/05/11 at 15:57:08:
sloughter wrote on 03/05/11 at 14:25:46:
The problem facing Black is that he has to continue making threats.

No. For gambit play to be justified it is not necessary to continue creating threats. That's a very old-fashioned approach. Maintaining the pressure and transforming temporary advantages in permanent ones is sufficient.
Micawber might be right - after 12.a3 Bb7 idea 13...c5 White has in addition problems to develop his/her Queenside.


Here is a way for White to seize the initiative:

8.Qf3 Be7
9.Be2 O-O
10.Nc3 Nd5
11.Nh3 Rb8
12.a3 Be6
13.b4 Nb7
14.Nxd5 Bxd5
15.Qe3 Bxg2
16.Rg1 Bd5
17.Bb2 Bf6
18.O-O-O Re8
19.c4 with a complicated game but I'd prefer to play White
  
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MNb
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #84 - 03/05/11 at 15:57:08
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sloughter wrote on 03/05/11 at 14:25:46:
The problem facing Black is that he has to continue making threats.

No. For gambit play to be justified it is not necessary to continue creating threats. That's a very old-fashioned approach. Maintaining the pressure and transforming temporary advantages in permanent ones is sufficient.
Micawber might be right - after 12.a3 Bb7 idea 13...c5 White has in addition problems to develop his/her Queenside.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #83 - 03/05/11 at 15:04:32
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@NMb, Slaughter 

After 9...Rb8 ..... 12.a3
In an OTB-game I would probably go for NMb's 12....Be6 with the intention to follow up with c5 and contain any White activity on the Q-side, before resuming any operations on the K-side.

This would also be my first line of investigation in a corr.game, but in that case I would probably research the tactical motives after 12...Bb7 (the Q on f3 is not invulnerable.

My point is not that Black has some hidden forced way to recapture material, but that the position is sufficient unclear, because White probably has to do some concessions to free himself. In other words that Black has a playable position after 12...Be6 and perhaps can use the a3-tempo and allow himself 12...Bb7 but that line requires concrete research.
  
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sloughter
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #82 - 03/05/11 at 14:25:46
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MNb wrote on 03/05/11 at 12:02:53:
What's good with this move? That it prevents ...Nb4 ? Then Black leaves the Knight nicely on d5 and plays 12.a3 f5 or 12...Be6. If it weren't for Na5 I would say Black is already slightly better, despite the minus pawn, because of the active pieces. Give Black a couple of move for free (f5, Na5-b7-d6 and Be6) and his position is excellent. With 12.a3 you give Black one move already. That's very friendly of you.


12.a3 f5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.d4 Nc6 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Qe3 Re8 17.O-O  White still has his gambit pawn, fewer pawn islands and there does not appear that Black is able to do much with the discovery on the Queen. 

12.a3 f5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.d4 e4 15.Qc3 Be6 17.Nf4 bringing the Knight back into play. Black has some compensation for the pawn. The problem facing Black is that he has to continue making threats. Now that the center has been clarified, it is unclear how this is done
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #81 - 03/05/11 at 14:00:00
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MNb wrote on 03/05/11 at 12:02:53:
What's good with this move? That it prevents ...Nb4 ? Then Black leaves the Knight nicely on d5 and plays 12.a3 f5 or 12...Be6. If it weren't for Na5 I would say Black is already slightly better, despite the minus pawn, because of the active pieces. Give Black a couple of move for free (f5, Na5-b7-d6 and Be6) and his position is excellent. With 12.a3 you give Black one move already. That's very friendly of you.

 
My point is that 12.a3 keeps a Rook out of h4. How can it be good to allow the Queen Rook to participate in the attack? White missed a forced move (unless there is some better way to keep the Rook out of h4). 

To suggest that a poorly played postal game should be used is no better than undo reliance on Fritz 12.

  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #80 - 03/05/11 at 12:02:53
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What's good with this move? That it prevents ...Nb4 ? Then Black leaves the Knight nicely on d5 and plays 12.a3 f5 or 12...Be6. If it weren't for Na5 I would say Black is already slightly better, despite the minus pawn, because of the active pieces. Give Black a couple of move for free (f5, Na5-b7-d6 and Be6) and his position is excellent. With 12.a3 you give Black one move already. That's very friendly of you.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #79 - 03/05/11 at 05:23:28
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sloughter wrote on 03/05/11 at 04:51:22:
micawber wrote on 03/04/11 at 17:17:23:
Sloughter
Apparently it is not enough that Arkhein beat the crap out of you 4 or five times with Be7 two years back.
Before you overload us with Fritxxx variations, you should do a little research and look at what is really going on in the position. And what reasonably strong players think about it.

For your benefit i will give you two gamecontinuations by 2200+ rated players in this line for you to think about. And no, i am not going to argue with Fritzxxxxxxx by proxy.

8.Qf3,Be7 9.Be2 0-0 10.Nc3,Nd5 11.Nh3
[1] 11....Rb8 12.0-0,Rb4 13.a3, Rh4 (Sidenko-Markus, corr.,2008)
[2] 11....Nb4 12.Bd1,Rb8 13.a3,Nd5 14.0-0,Be6 Miettinen-Sidenko, corr., 2008)
Black actually won the first game and drew the second.
In both cases unclear positions resulted, but anyway Black was by no means as cooperative as you constantly assume he will be.

8...h6 and 8...Rb8 are indeed under a bit of a cloud.
Short played a very interesting game against Hebden in the 8...h6 variation proving at least some advantage.
If I remember correctly Short remarked that he has analysed 8.Qf3 with either Karjakin or Radjobov in some depth in the months prior to that game.
Both the strong correspondence player Muir and especially van der Wiel have shown that 8...Rb8 is no longer very reliable.


11...Nb4 12.Bd1 Rb8 13.a3 Nd5 14.O-O Be6 15.Re1 f6 (Qd7 16.b3/Bb2) 16.b3 seems slightly better for White.

It is interesting that we started out with all sorts of ways for Black to equalize; now we are arguing about subvariations in the 8...Be7 system when everything else seems to favor White.


As for 11...Rb8 what is wrong with the obvious 12.a3?
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #78 - 03/05/11 at 04:51:22
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micawber wrote on 03/04/11 at 17:17:23:
Sloughter
Apparently it is not enough that Arkhein beat the crap out of you 4 or five times with Be7 two years back.
Before you overload us with Fritxxx variations, you should do a little research and look at what is really going on in the position. And what reasonably strong players think about it.

For your benefit i will give you two gamecontinuations by 2200+ rated players in this line for you to think about. And no, i am not going to argue with Fritzxxxxxxx by proxy.

8.Qf3,Be7 9.Be2 0-0 10.Nc3,Nd5 11.Nh3
[1] 11....Rb8 12.0-0,Rb4 13.a3, Rh4 (Sidenko-Markus, corr.,2008)
[2] 11....Nb4 12.Bd1,Rb8 13.a3,Nd5 14.0-0,Be6 Miettinen-Sidenko, corr., 2008)
Black actually won the first game and drew the second.
In both cases unclear positions resulted, but anyway Black was by no means as cooperative as you constantly assume he will be.

8...h6 and 8...Rb8 are indeed under a bit of a cloud.
Short played a very interesting game against Hebden in the 8...h6 variation proving at least some advantage.
If I remember correctly Short remarked that he has analysed 8.Qf3 with either Karjakin or Radjobov in some depth in the months prior to that game.
Both the strong correspondence player Muir and especially van der Wiel have shown that 8...Rb8 is no longer very reliable.


11...Nb4 12.Bd1 Rb8 13.a3 Nd5 14.O-O Be6 15.Re1 f6 (Qd7 16.b3/Bb2) 16.b3 seems slightly better for White.

It is interesting that we started out with all sorts of ways for Black to equalize; now we are arguing about subvariations in the 8...Be7 system when everything else seems to favor White.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #77 - 03/04/11 at 21:27:06
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Markovich wrote on 03/04/11 at 17:53:03:
in fact, this move has had some strong proponents over the years.  There was that Dutchman van der Whatsis, sorry, with the greatest respect I can't remember which van der it was.

There aren't that many Dutch GM's called Van der Whatses. Moreover Micawber already mentioned his name in the last line of his last post, just above yours.  Smiley
Van der Wiel. You may pronounce it Vanderwheel. Writes for NIC, wrote an excellent book on the Sveshnikov, was one of the first practicioners of that one and likes to dabble in some non-Spanish Open Games.
Beat Gligoric back in 1980 with 8.Qf3.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #76 - 03/04/11 at 17:53:03
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I don't think anyone's defeating sloughter in a match is entirely relevant to the point being debated, do you?  sloughter is entitled to his view that 8.Qf3 is God's answer to the Two Knights, however isolated he may be in that position.  And in fact, this move has had some strong proponents over the years.  There was that Dutchman van der Whatsis, sorry, with the greatest respect I can't remember which van der it was.

@sloughter: I wouldn't come to this forum very often expecting anyone to be impressed by Fritz evaluations.  Many people here can play chess rather well, you know?
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #75 - 03/04/11 at 17:17:23
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Sloughter
Apparently it is not enough that Arkhein beat the crap out of you 4 or five times with Be7 two years back.
Before you overload us with Fritxxx variations, you should do a little research and look at what is really going on in the position. And what reasonably strong players think about it.

For your benefit i will give you two gamecontinuations by 2200+ rated players in this line for you to think about. And no, i am not going to argue with Fritzxxxxxxx by proxy.

8.Qf3,Be7 9.Be2 0-0 10.Nc3,Nd5 11.Nh3
[1] 11....Rb8 12.0-0,Rb4 13.a3, Rh4 (Sidenko-Markus, corr.,2008)
[2] 11....Nb4 12.Bd1,Rb8 13.a3,Nd5 14.0-0,Be6 Miettinen-Sidenko, corr., 2008)
Black actually won the first game and drew the second.
In both cases unclear positions resulted, but anyway Black was by no means as cooperative as you constantly assume he will be.

8...h6 and 8...Rb8 are indeed under a bit of a cloud.
Short played a very interesting game against Hebden in the 8...h6 variation proving at least some advantage.
If I remember correctly Short remarked that he has analysed 8.Qf3 with either Karjakin or Radjobov in some depth in the months prior to that game.
Both the strong correspondence player Muir and especially van der Wiel have shown that 8...Rb8 is no longer very reliable.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #74 - 03/04/11 at 13:23:07
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Alias wrote on 03/04/11 at 10:27:50:
trw wrote on 03/04/11 at 08:29:49:
Do any strong players actually think white has a clear advantage after 8. Qf3? I have never seen this advocated anywhere else... most of my 2N books remark is unclear or plus for black thus stating why white should prefer different lines like Be2 Bd3 stuff.


I think Short wrote a very positive remark on Qf3 some years ago in NiC mag. I don't think he was fully serious though.


Didn't short also recommend the Steinitz Defense?

The only variation where White has not been able to demonstrate a plus so far is the variation 8.Qf3 Be7! Here is a new try in that line. I have always tried to play the TKD positionlally so I have never liked the 8.Qf3/Bd3 variation where Black doubles White's d-pawns. Although I have drawn Fritz 12 with Qf3/Bd3, there are no realistic ways to get a plus if Black chops on d3 and f5 (Nf3/Ng5/Ne4/Ng3/Nf5)

8.Qf3 Be7
9.Be2! O-O
10.Nc3 Nd5
11.Nh3! (White removes the Knight immediately and avoids the line where Nge4 allows f5 with tempo) 
11...f5 (Black cannot pursue the attack without this move. If Black cannot demonstrate equality here, then White has made huge progress)
12.Nxd5!! cxd5
13.d4! White can avoid the passive d3 and fight for space.
13...e4
14.Qg3! Bh4
15.Qc3 Bb7
16.Bd2! (HItting a5) Nc4
17.Bxc4 dxc4
18.O-O Rc8
19.Rfd1 & White is better.

You will note that we transposed to a highly favorable variation of the Steinitz Defense where the Knight on h3 is connected to the Queen so there is no danger of doubled pawns of h3. It is highly significant that White can get in d4 without being punished.

The main point of 8.Qf3 is that White fights to keep an extra file closed. The main line allows Black to break open the center for his pieces. Here in the 8.Qf3 variation, do you notice how difficult is for Black to open lines? I welcome any attempt to improve on 11...f5. Without the ability to open lines, White just develops, ignores the f5 push, and consolidates his extra pawn.

We now seem to have a plus against:

1) 8...cxb5
2) 8...h6
3) 8...Rb8
4) 8...Be7

The other lines will be addressed e.g. 8...Qc7, 8...Bd6, 8...Be6

The ball is in your court ArKheiN
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #73 - 03/04/11 at 10:27:50
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trw wrote on 03/04/11 at 08:29:49:
Do any strong players actually think white has a clear advantage after 8. Qf3? I have never seen this advocated anywhere else... most of my 2N books remark is unclear or plus for black thus stating why white should prefer different lines like Be2 Bd3 stuff.


I think Short wrote a very positive remark on Qf3 some years ago in NiC mag. I don't think he was fully serious though.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #72 - 03/04/11 at 09:55:59
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trw wrote on 03/04/11 at 08:29:49:
Do any strong players actually think white has a clear advantage after 8. Qf3? I have never seen this advocated anywhere else... most of my 2N books remark is unclear or plus for black thus stating why white should prefer different lines like Be2 Bd3 stuff.


No. But some computers crave the extra pawn.  Wink
  
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