ChessPub Forum - C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights?

NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #116 - 05/23/11 at 08:15:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thansk for this , I must admit the analyses look pretty convincing! All this is a bit of a pain, since the respectable Fritz variation which I've been playing for years has been busted. The big question remains - what's blacks best line against Ng5 if not Fritz/Ulvestadt? I suppose 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5: Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7? What do you guys recommend? The second big question - can black play for a win in this line or does he have to be satisfied with a draw?


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micawber

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Re: What to do r2k3r/against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #115 - 05/20/11 at 17:28:54

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Position after 13.Re1,c6.

White can evade complications with Kd7/Rae8 in two ways:

14.h4 (Bernasek game, thx MNB)

14.Bf1 (at once),Kd7 (setting up the threat Re8 again)
15.Qf3 (here 15.h4 might be good again).
and now
15....Rae8 runs into 16.Qxf7+ +- (Lelenko - Findiur, 1995)
15....f5 (to preserve f7) 16.d3 +/- attacking the queen
(Schroeder-van den Bergh, 2009)
and white following up with Nc3 will be in time to join rooks.

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #114 - 05/20/11 at 16:25:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	You obviously haven't played yet through that Bernasek-Cifka game.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #113 - 05/20/11 at 13:43:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	I fully understand the point you guys are making. Pinski mentions 13.Re1, and it looks as if black is busted. That's what I thought at first, but now I'm not so sure. What about 13. ... c6 14.Bc4 (or some other square) 14. ... Kd7, threatening Re8? I suppose white will then need to remove his Queen after which Re8 will probably follow anyway. Swapping rooks then introduces the threat Re1+, so white will need to go back to f1 with the rook after which black has won three tempi and seems to be doing very well - or did I miss something maybe? c6 blocks out the Bb7 but that may be only temporary since a later ... c5 may come.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #112 - 05/19/11 at 16:51:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	13. Re1 was thought clearly better for White by Nunn in his eponymous encyclopedia from the late '90s (he also pointed out 13. d3 as a blunder).


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Djy Full Member Offline Non mais y connait pas Raoul! Posts: 157 Joined: 03/21/10	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #111 - 05/19/11 at 16:41:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/19/11 at 13:07:08: I wonder guys - a lot of discussions have taken place here on my original question - going back to the main theme, I wonder if the Fritz is really busted? after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5: Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nd5: 8.cd4: Qg5: 9.Bb5:+ Kd8 10.0-0 Bb7 11.Qf3 can't black go 11. ... e4!?, e.g. 12.Qe4: Bd6 13.d3 Bh2:+! 14.Kh2: Nf4 and black wins. Well sorry for the of topic. In your line 13.Re1 is much stronger. Kritz(in chessbase141 ) affirm black is busted after 8.cd4 and give 2 games Winants - Ferguson and Merleshko - Terletsky

	La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence Gainsbourg La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat! Coluche
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #110 - 05/19/11 at 16:27:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	So 13.Re1 and now what? See Bernasek-Cifka, CZEch U12 1998.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #109 - 05/19/11 at 13:07:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wonder guys - a lot of discussions have taken place here on my original question - going back to the main theme, I wonder if the Fritz is really busted? after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5: Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nd5: 8.cd4: Qg5: 9.Bb5:+ Kd8 10.0-0 Bb7 11.Qf3 can't black go 11. ... e4!?, e.g. 12.Qe4: Bd6 13.d3 Bh2:+! 14.Kh2: Nf4 and black wins.


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Djy Full Member Offline Non mais y connait pas Raoul! Posts: 157 Joined: 03/21/10	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #108 - 05/19/11 at 10:13:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	trw wrote on 02/21/11 at 21:38:06: Markovich wrote on 02/20/11 at 14:15:39: A great many words have been wasted in this forum about the Traxler. To me it looks pretty bad after 5.Bxf7+ followed by 6.Bb3. I like to get castled, you know? I am convince 6. Bd5 is good as well in the Traxler. What is your opinion? 6.Bd5 is the old main line (in the pre computer age) so sure it's a very interesting move and black often have a long and difficult road of only move to find it's why the Traxler is un attractive i think. BUT just from a theorical point of view i believe black is no worse In 6.Bd5 as in 6.Bb3 line .Moreover it's like in the middle od amazionia's forest there's so much to discover with both colours.( example 6.Bc4!?)

	La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence Gainsbourg La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat! Coluche
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Djy Full Member Offline Non mais y connait pas Raoul! Posts: 157 Joined: 03/21/10	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #107 - 05/10/11 at 11:46:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Conquistador wrote on 03/08/11 at 22:20:38: This will be a rollback to a earlier conversation in this thread. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 Markovich, you have asked about what black can do about the simple 7.d3 and 8.Be3. From what I have analyzed, black still needs some help, but so far can achieve good compensation for the pawn. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 and now two variations: A: 7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 B: 7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 A: I believe this variation to be effectively refuted. There are two main variations. 7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qh5 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.c3 Bb6 13.a4 a5 14.h3 Raf8 15.Qe2 Kd8 16.0-0-0 and white is clearly better in position and pawn. 7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nxb3 11.axb3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Rf8 13.0-0 and black has no compensation. B: I think this may be black’s only real try. Two variations: B1: This line is just bad for black. 7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qg6 11.Nc3 Raf8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.0-0-0 and black has no compensation for the pawn. B2: I believe this line to be best. 7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nbd2 g5 12.Qe2 Bd7 13.0-0-0 g4 14.Ne1 Rhf8 15.g3 Rae8 16.Ng2 Na5 17.Nh4 Nxb3+ 18.Nxb3 Kd8 and black has nice compensation This is great compared to previous lines, but white has a better move. Critical is 11.Nc3! Raf8 12.0-0 Nd7 13.Qe2 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Kd8 15.f4 Qh6 16.fxe5 Ncxe5 17.d4 Ng6 and black has compensation, but white is better. I feel that black should be able to hold the endgame, although in practice this could be difficult. I still would not mind playing the Traxler though. After 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 I prefer Qg6 In similar position,Pinski in his book (two knights) and stefan Bucker(Over the horizon 2007) don't exchange on e3. The reason is simple Achille's heel (case f2 and f3) disappear. 8...Qg6 9.Nf3 bg4 10.Bc5 dc5 11.Nbd2 Raf8 12.0-0 Nd4 and here i'ven't found a theorical problem for black yet. i 've tried 13.Kh1 and 13.Ne5 but maybe i'ven't tried too hard
	« Last Edit: 05/10/11 at 12:47:06 by Djy »
	La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence Gainsbourg La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat! Coluche
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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 916 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #106 - 04/10/11 at 17:13:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	micawber wrote on 04/10/11 at 07:17:13: ON THE RECENT BERLINER POSTS 8.Ne4 (8.cxd4) Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Bxb5+ Kd8 13.0-0 exf3 @Jediknight Quote: Unfortunately, as mentioned in the other thread, Tim Harding's latest article on the Two Knights suggests that Black is in trouble there after 14.Rxf3 Rb8 15.Bf1 Rb4 (Berliner's latest try) 16.Nc2!. I think you meant to say 16.Na3 (discovered by Arjan Oudheusden),Re8 17.Nc2! +/- since 16.Nc2 is illegal. [/color] Yes, apologies for that- I did indeed mean 16.Na3, and for some reason I came out with a Freudian error in this thread, despite giving 16.Na3 in the other one! Unfortunately I can't find a way to salvage that critical line for Black, barring some vague/insufficient attacking chances.


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g2-g4 YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 38 Location: Moscow Joined: 11/01/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #105 - 04/10/11 at 07:24:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	micawber wrote on 04/10/11 at 07:17:13: One minor correction though after 14.Qb3,Rb8 15.Qxd5,Rxb5 16.Qxb5,fxg2 I think something went wrong with the line 17.Qd5 Bh3 18.d3 Bxf1 since 18.Re1! should win for white and 18...Bxf1 is illegal. 17.Qd5, gxf1 18.Nxf1,Bh3 was your intention I guess which should be good enough for a draw. Right you are. I was falling asleep and missed a little bit.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #104 - 04/10/11 at 07:17:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	ON THE RECENT BERLINER POSTS 8.Ne4 (8.cxd4) Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Bxb5+ Kd8 13.0-0 exf3 @Jediknight Quote: Unfortunately, as mentioned in the other thread, Tim Harding's latest article on the Two Knights suggests that Black is in trouble there after 14.Rxf3 Rb8 15.Bf1 Rb4 (Berliner's latest try) 16.Nc2!. I think you meant to say 16.Na3 (discovered by Arjan Oudheusden),Re8 17.Nc2! +/- since 16.Nc2 is illegal. @Mnb A fine piece of analysis and indeed a good line against 14.Qb3. One minor correction though after 14.Qb3,Rb8 15.Qxd5,Rxb5 16.Qxb5,fxg2 I think something went wrong with the line 17.Qd5 Bh3 18.d3 Bxf1 since 18.Re1! should win for white and 18...Bxf1 is illegal. 17.Qd5, gxf1 18.Nxf1,Bh3 was your intention I guess which should be good enough for a draw. 19.d3 and now not 19...Bxf1 20.Bg5+ but 19...Qg4+ 20.Kf2,Bxf1= There also is 18.Nxf1, Re8 19.d3,f6 (to preempt Bg5/Qg5) 20.Nc3,Re1=


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micawber

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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #103 - 04/10/11 at 06:40:03

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@Craigevans

After
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O (Agreed - stronger than 10.Qf3 - the Ra8 sac is a powerful idea indeed!) exd4 11.Bc6 Rb8 12.d3 Qf5 13.Nd2! Rb6 14.Qa4! Nb4 (Black's last chance as the alternatives look unpalatable) 15.Be4 Qb5 16.Qxb5 Rxb5 17.a3! Na6 18.Nf3.

Your line
18...c5! 19.Ng5,Be6 20.Nxe6,fxe6 looks defensible for Black.

But White can still make blacks life a bit difficult perhaps with
21.b4!?

The point being that Black cant very well take on b4
since after 21...xb4 22.xb4,Nxb4 23.Rxa7 looks disasterous.

21.....Bd6
22.Bd2 +/=
Still not the end of the world for Black, but at least white has solved the problem of his backward b-pawn and is better imo.

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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 916 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #102 - 04/09/11 at 22:43:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Unfortunately, as mentioned in the other thread, Tim Harding's latest article on the Two Knights suggests that Black is in trouble there after 14.Rxf3 Rb8 15.Bf1 Rb4 (Berliner's latest try) 16.Nc2!. http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz148.pdf It would be good if Black could find a similar "save" in that line though!


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