ArKheiN wrote on 02/21/11 at 18:27:28:

About the quality for Black to play 3...Nf6 and so allowing 4.Ng5 - GM Gusti therefore opts for 3...Bc5 stating that he is not sure of equality for Black after 4.Ng5

What's the verdict on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5: Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7? That's a very reasonable reply if followed up by 7.Qe2 Be7! rather than Bd6. Anyone agrees?

Matemax wrote on 02/14/11 at 15:23:23:


For players of the Black pieces the 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 is an excellent theoretical choice because Fritz 12 likes Black's chances after the main line 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2? Players of the Black pieces should welcome this move; that is why I prefer 8.Qf3. Here are the best plans for Black.

1) It is critical that you play 8...h6 so that White cannot play 9.d3/Ne4,

2) Hit the Knight retreat to h3 with g5 (the Steinitz Defense), or hit the Knight if it retreats to f3 immediately with e4 to provoke Ne5,

3) After White plays Ne5, then Bc5/Bd6 is too nuanced; play Bd6,

4) Regardless whether White plays f4 or d4, capture en passant to open lines,

5) Castle and centralize your Rooks; your Queen belongs on c7 so that the battery against h2 forces White to waste a tempo on h3,

6) Look for targets of opportunity,

7) If none appear then play c5/Nc6/c4 to pry open the position.

Whether you play against either 8.Bd3 or 8.Qf3, the general rule of thumb is that you should try to force White to capture a Black Knight on d5 with a Knight or Bishop so that you wind up with pawns on d5/e5/f5. If you acquire that pawn phalanx in the center, then Black is usually better.

ArKheiN wrote on 02/20/11 at 12:15:21:

 
Point taken---the variation I'm playing against Fritz 12 is the critical line 8.Qf3 Be7! (ArKein--why not show the nubbies why don't you, why 9.Bxc6ch is a bad idea?) variation I'm trying now is the variation 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O 10.Nc3 h6 11.Nge4 Nd5 12.Ng3 g6 (Played by Fritz 12 after several minutes of thought)13.Be4!with complications. This is geared towards a piece sacrifice where White winds up with three passed pawns for the piece and an unbalanced game. A major attribute of Be4 is that it allows d3 with a hit on the h6 pawn and avoids the crippling Nb4/Nxd3 with at least equality.

ArKheiN wrote on 02/20/11 at 12:15:21:


It would be a very great service to everyone if you would put the first nine moves.  Having checked the link, I still can't figure out that you're talking about.

Personally I think that 5...Na5 is not only the best practical choice, but also a fully adequate rejoinder to 4.Ng5.  I would reject 5...Nxd5 not only on practical grounds, but also because I think that after 6.d4, Black is much worse.  This, notwithstanding sloughter's contrary opinion.  The Ulvestad is a great system for scholastic players and if I recall MNb's able analysis of it here correctly, leads with best play to a position where White has only a miniscule structural advantage.  I wasn't aware that 8.cxd4 was as strong as Arkhein says, so perhaps that's the death of the Ulvestad.

A great many words have been wasted in this forum about the Traxler.  To me it looks pretty bad after 5.Bxf7+ followed by 6.Bb3.  I like to get castled, you know?

A great coffeehouse move is 4...Nxe4?!, but like the Traxler, it fails to 5.Bxf7+.

But Black's lucky if White goes in for 4.Ng5 these days.  You always see 4.d3, after which you can take your pick between 4...Be7 and 4...Bc5 (4...d5 is not quite sound).  To me, 4...Bc5 seems much more ambitious.  So while learning the Two Knights is a great education, at higher levels, it turns out that the only real reason for playing it is to avoid the Evans Gambit and the 5.c3 Guioco (and to be able to play a timely ...Nf6 against the infrequently seen Scotch and Urusov gambits). 

About Sloughter, we have played 5 games in the chess.com website where I won 5-0 as Black with Na5 against Qf3. Ok that doesn't mean Black is winning. But Black is at least equal, I am pretty sure about that.

MNb: some times ago we discussed about the Fritz-Ulvestad again http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1256554731/30

where I did refresh my previous thoughts, and nothing have changed for me since. We have to say that serious practice on the subject is needed, for example strong corr games. I think 10.0-0 exd4 11.Bc6 instead of 11.d3 is more precise (this is already what I have said in the past). And now after the forced 11..Rb8 12.d3, we have reached the same position as 10.0-0 Rb8 11.Bc6 exd4 12.d3 where we quickly looked at 12..Nf4 and 12..Qf5. 

Against 12..Nf4 there is 13.Na4! so the little conclusion seemed to be 12..Qf5 as one of the best try to get a playable game. Computer still prefer White (almost +/-) to it but I agree that in practice, Black may have chances against the king. Note that the Kd8 is not very happy too.

Matemax wrote on 02/14/11 at 15:23:23:


As far as the main line---the 5...Na5 is about equal to 5...Nxd5 theoretically, but unless you are a good defender you will get better practical results with 5...Na5. An unprepared Black player might try 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 Nxc6?? 8.Bc4! (The toughest move in chess to see is the retreat of the Bishop; GM Lev Alburt missed this when we analyzed the variation together; Fritz finds it in a split second). There is no defense to the threat of Nxf7 with a super charged Fried Liver.

If you want a "trappy" variation of the TKD where you will get good tactical/practical play, then just play in response to 5...Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.bxc6 dxc6 8.Qf3 cxb5?! Theoretically not sound but an excellent practical choice. It took me 30 moves to consolidate my advantage against Fritz 12. All it takes is for White to make even one small mistake and Black gets excellent play. In this variation for example, if White tries to hold the g2 pawn with Qh3 after Bb7, the Queen is a target on h3 and Black is better. If White plays the logical 14.Nf3, then Black is at least equal. If White misses 13.c3 Black is close to winning.

Here is a complex maneuvering game against Fritz 12 which eventually cracked under the pressure.

8.Qf3 cxb5 9.Qxa8 Qd7 10.Qf3 Be7 11.O-O Bb7 12.Qe2 Nc6 13.c3 h6 14.Nh3! a6 15.f3 O-O 16.Nf2 Nd5 17.d3 Re8 18.Qd1 Bc5 19.Kh1 Rd8 20.Qc2 Rc8 21.Qe2 f6 22.Ne4 Be7 23.Rd1 f5 24.Nf2 b4 25.a3 bxc3 26.bxc3 Bc5 27.Ra2 Qf7 28.Rc2 Re8 29.Re1 Rb8 30.Rb2 Qf6 31.Qe2 Qe7 32.d4! exd4 33.Qxe7 & Black will pick up a center pawn but White will pick up the a-pawn with a clear advantage.