ChessPub Forum - C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights?

ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #41 - 02/22/11 at 19:42:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes micawber, I remember perfectly, because I couldn't find anything for White. Maybe 11.Bc6 Nf4 12.g3 is equal, but of course White has to play 10.0-0 instead of 10.Qf3 as pointed in my previous posts.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #40 - 02/22/11 at 17:04:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	trw wrote on 02/21/11 at 21:38:06: Markovich wrote on 02/20/11 at 14:15:39: A great many words have been wasted in this forum about the Traxler. To me it looks pretty bad after 5.Bxf7+ followed by 6.Bb3. I like to get castled, you know? I am convince 6. Bd5 is good as well in the Traxler. What is your opinion? I'm no great expert on it, but even there I would rather be White. But if 6.Bb3 works, I would rather save my bishop. I like bishops! @micawber: I'm always impressed by your knowledge of the 1...e5 systems.

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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #39 - 02/22/11 at 17:03:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Actually the move-order given in the ginsburg article is inaccurate: What follows below was posted all posted on this forum two or three years back. 10.Qf3,exd4! (iso 10...Bb7) And now two lines: Line I. 11.Bc6,Nf4! 12.Bxa8,Bg4! -/+ Line II 11.0-0, Rb8! unclear =================================== [b]The correct move order is: 10.0-0! And now again two lines: line A 10. Bb7 11.Qf3! +/- And we are back in the line from Matemax and the Ginsburg article. line B 10. Rb8 11.Bc6 exd4 12.d3! Nf4 13.Na3 Rb6 Following Pirrot-Daeubler, Bad Woerishofen, 2008 And now 14.Qf3! +/- (rather than Pirrots 14.Qa4?!)


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #38 - 02/22/11 at 14:06:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ginsburg's conclusion - 3...Bc5! - is quite premature, but after 12.dxe5 it's clear that Black is busted. Black's salvation depends on ...ed4. If this doesn't work it's back to 5...Na5.

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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #37 - 02/22/11 at 10:51:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	For Matemax: http://nezhmet.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/the-fabulous-00s-death-of-the-main-line-... NeverGiveUp, what changed since 100 years? Maybe strong computers has come no? You are optimist about Black after 8.cxd4 but you don't give any line for Black to continue. What would you play after 8..Qxg5 9.Fxb5 Kd8 10.0-0?


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Matemax

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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #36 - 02/22/11 at 10:28:42

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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/22/11 at 09:47:42:

Re the Fritz/Ulestadt

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8

I have been trying to figger out what's the problem here - this line is about 100 years old now and the verdict has always been that black is doing OK. He has several continuations which are good. So what's new here to change the vedict?

As said I was more worried about 8.Ne4 but if black has suffient compensation after Ne6 then this might be doable.

If white would be winning after 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8
(what seems quite unlikely) then this would be a big blow to the Fritz/Ulvestadt indeed.

The following sequence may be critical:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.Qf3 Bb7 11.O-O Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3

White is a pawn up. Black on his side has the bishop pair and ideas based on Rb8-b6-g6 and/or ...f6. Despite the engine giving +1.0 here for White I think that the position is rather unclear and probably dynamically balanced. Well if not - Mr. Fritz is in trouble...

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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #35 - 02/22/11 at 09:47:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Re the Fritz/Ulestadt 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 I have been trying to figger out what's the problem here - this line is about 100 years old now and the verdict has always been that black is doing OK. He has several continuations which are good. So what's new here to change the vedict? As said I was more worried about 8.Ne4 but if black has suffient compensation after Ne6 then this might be doable. If white would be winning after 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 (what seems quite unlikely) then this would be a big blow to the Fritz/Ulvestadt indeed.


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #34 - 02/22/11 at 08:08:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Roger Williamson wrote on 02/22/11 at 02:40:21: Why would Black play 10... Bxf5? This is probably best. If 10...Bb7 11.Qd3 forces the exchange of Queens; White simplifies and keeps the pawn.


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Roger Williamson Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 114 Joined: 09/26/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #33 - 02/22/11 at 02:40:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why would Black play 10... Bxf5?


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #32 - 02/22/11 at 01:53:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	ArKheiN wrote on 02/21/11 at 19:25:07: But until he doesn't show anything convincing against Na5, we could say "we are not sure about equality in many serious defenses!" It has been my contention that for White to succeed in the main line he has to play "positional" not tactical chess. Here is a positional idea in the main line that leaves White with the best he can achieve (as far as I can determine) 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bd3 O-O?! 10.Bf5!! N? White gets around his primary problem; now he can play d3. Here is possible play for both sides 10...Bxf5 11.Qxf5 g6 12.Qf3 Nd5 13.Nh3 Nb7 14.O-O Nd6 15.d3 White can be happy. White has the pawn so Black has to make progress to prove full equality.


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sloughter God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Location: schoharie Joined: 12/29/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #31 - 02/22/11 at 01:25:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 16:53:53: What's the verdict on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5: Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7? That's a very reasonable reply if followed up by 7.Qe2 Be7! rather than Bd6. Anyone agrees? It's the best try for Black; White can only get a pawn majority without any pawn weaknesses to work against in the endgame. That's the best he can do. It is a very difficult position for White to win. Black threatens to plant the Queen Knight on d4 and cramp White. Fairly clear is the line 6.Bb5ch Be7 7.Qe2 O-O 8.Nc3 c6 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.O-O & it is a tough game.


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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #30 - 02/21/11 at 21:41:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's funny to read "safe grounds" about the Fritz-Ulvestad after the 8.cxd4 variation I won't buy any chess DVD because I don't like the concept, I prefer good books. And good books don't exist for each openings What is sure for me: I will keep the 2 Knights defense as a corr weapon at any level of play (or OTB but not necessary with Na5)


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trw YaBB Moderator Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #29 - 02/21/11 at 21:38:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 02/20/11 at 14:15:39: A great many words have been wasted in this forum about the Traxler. To me it looks pretty bad after 5.Bxf7+ followed by 6.Bb3. I like to get castled, you know? I am convince 6. Bd5 is good as well in the Traxler. What is your opinion?


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #28 - 02/21/11 at 20:59:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	ArKheiN wrote on 02/21/11 at 19:25:07: But until he doesn't show anything convincing against Na5, we could say "we are not sure about equality in many serious defenses!" Maybe you have to get the 4.Ng5 DVD of Trent (repertoire for White) and look for an answer there - unfortunately I dont own it... I played and still play a lot of 3...Nf6 against 3.Bc4 and on an "ordinary level" I am convinced that 4...Na5 with Bd7 and Be7 to follow as well as Fritz/Ulvestad is a completely satisfying and interesting choice for Black as long as you stay on somehow safe grounds (not going for the Berliner which is refuted!). I dont like the Traxler due to Bf7, Bd5 followed by Bc6 at some moment. On the other hand 3...Bc5 is less forcing and therefore offers more possibilities against weaker opponents. On the other hand a 2.650 GM doing a DVD on his OWN repertoire says a lot about the right opening choice and I am way to weak to NOT follow this advice


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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights? Reply #27 - 02/21/11 at 19:25:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	But until he doesn't show anything convincing against Na5, we could say "we are not sure about equality in many serious defenses!"


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