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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57-C59: What to do against 4.Ng5 in 2 knights? (Read 104113 times)
MNb
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #101 - 04/09/11 at 22:11:36
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This deserves attention. Of course it's not enough yet to revive the Berliner, but I don't think this has been widely known.

8.Ne4 (8.cxd4) Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Bxb5+ Kd8 13.0-0 exf3 14.Qb3

g2-g4 wrote on 04/09/11 at 21:14:46:
MNb wrote on 04/04/11 at 21:28:54:

Moreover they are only interested in 12...Kd8 <...> 13.0-0 exf3, which has been refuted by 14.Qb3 since Estrin-Nielsen, WCh corr ICCF 1972. This is to be found in Pachmann's Moderne Schachtheorie, 1.Offene Spiele, page 156.

I found 14...Rb8!? in my old notes with the following continuation: 15.Qxd5 (White doesn't seem to have a choice) Rxb5! 16.Qxb5 fxg2 and now:
  • 17.Re1? Bxg3 -+
  • 17.Kxg2 Bxg3 18.Qb8+ Bc8 19.hxg3 Qh3+ 20.Kf2 Re8! and perpetual is inevitable
  • 17.Rf2 Re8 18,Rxg2 Re1+ 19.Nf1? Bh3-+ so White has to give up his queen 19.Qf1 Rxf1+ 20.Nxf1 Bh3 but this is quite comfortable for Black, and, finally
  • 17.Qd5 Bh3 18.d3 Bxf1 which forces 19.Qg5+ Qxg5 20.Bxg5 =
  
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MNb
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #100 - 04/03/11 at 10:27:15
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I agree that it's not entirely hopeless, but it's certainly not a position I'd like to defend in corr. chess. Something like 19.a4 Rb6 20.a5 Re6 21.Bd5 Re7 22.Ng5 Ke8 23.Ne4 I'd rather play as White.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #99 - 04/03/11 at 09:15:05
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MNb wrote on 02/23/11 at 20:45:56:
You're absolutely right. 17.a3 Na6 18.Nf3 wins a safe pawn and 17.a3 f5 18.Bf3 Na6 leaves Black with bad piece coordination. Maybe 14...Rxc6 15.Qxc6 Nb4 16.Qa4 Qxd3 17.Nf3 Qa6 18.Qd1 c5 is possible, but I don't have much faith in it.
This looks like the end, my friend.


I am still a little unsure if white wins a safe pawn in that line.

To bring everyone up to date on what I'm looking at (since expecting you to read my mind or research everything is not fair), I am currently examining the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O (Agreed - stronger than 10.Qf3 - the Ra8 sac is a powerful idea indeed!) exd4 11.Bc6 Rb8 12.d3 Qf5 13.Nd2! Rb6 14.Qa4! Nb4 (Black's last chance as the alternatives look unpalateable) 15.Be4 Qb5 16.Qxb5 Rxb5 17.a3! Na6 18.Nf3. 

Why can black not play the simple 18...c5 here? 19.Ng5 looks like the standard follow-up, but 19...Be6 20.Nxe6+ fxe6 doesn't look like the end of the world for black. I'd suggest white is probably a little better, but material is equal and a manoeuvre like Nc7-e8-f6 should yield a fairly solid and defensible position, even against the two bishops.

Am I missing something hideously obvious here that crushes black earlier? Or did you just evaluate this position as hopeless I wonder? Maybe white instead plays 19.b4? But then 19..f6 and it's still a game - again maybe white has a pull but having spent years defending far worse positions, I don't think it's hopeless yet...
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #98 - 03/21/11 at 09:10:23
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Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 17:06:51:
And Also Fritz Is not the engine that understands Material Imbalances. Fritz 10 was tactically stronger. Others are crap.


Most versions of Fritz are strong enough to thrash nearly everybody here in an OTB game.

As for analysis, computer assessments are always relative - that is, how much you understand what they're telling you, and whether you can rely on them in a particular position.

I mostly use Fritz 9, which is tactically very strong indeed, but overestimates the initiative on occasion. In those cases, if I feel that F9's assessment seems somewhat suspect, I switch to a more conservative version such as Fritz 6 and see what that has to say. Usually the "advantage" decreases considerably.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #97 - 03/21/11 at 09:02:28
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Conquistador wrote on 03/08/11 at 22:20:38:
This will be a rollback to a earlier conversation in this thread.   

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3


Has there been any further discussion of 6...Qf8!? since my last post several weeks ago?
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #96 - 03/18/11 at 17:06:51
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Markovich wrote on 03/04/11 at 17:53:03:
I don't think anyone's defeating sloughter in a match is entirely relevant to the point being debated, do you?  sloughter is entitled to his view that 8.Qf3 is God's answer to the Two Knights, however isolated he may be in that position.  And in fact, this move has had some strong proponents over the years.  There was that Dutchman van der Whatsis, sorry, with the greatest respect I can't remember which van der it was.

@sloughter: I wouldn't come to this forum very often expecting anyone to be impressed by Fritz evaluations.  Many people here can play chess rather well, you know?

And Also Fritz Is not the engine that understands Material Imbalances. Fritz 10 was tactically stronger. Others are crap.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #95 - 03/11/11 at 15:26:00
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Conquistador wrote on 03/08/11 at 22:20:38:
This will be a rollback to a earlier conversation in this thread.  

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 

Markovich, you have asked about what black can do about the simple 7.d3 and 8.Be3.  From what I have analyzed, black still needs some help, but so far can achieve good compensation for the pawn.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 and now two variations:

A: 7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6
B: 7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4

A: I believe this variation to be effectively refuted.  There are two main variations.

7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qh5 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.c3 Bb6 13.a4 a5 14.h3 Raf8 15.Qe2 Kd8 16.0-0-0 and white is clearly better in position and pawn.

7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nxb3 11.axb3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Rf8 13.0-0 and black has no compensation.

B: I think this may be black’s only real try.  Two variations:

B1:  This line is just bad for black.

7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qg6 11.Nc3 Raf8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.0-0-0 and black has no compensation for the pawn.

B2: I believe this line to be best.

7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nbd2 g5 12.Qe2 Bd7 13.0-0-0 g4 14.Ne1 Rhf8 15.g3 Rae8 16.Ng2 Na5 17.Nh4 Nxb3+ 18.Nxb3 Kd8 and black has nice compensation

This is great compared to previous lines, but white has a better move.

Critical is 11.Nc3! Raf8 12.0-0 Nd7 13.Qe2 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Kd8 15.f4 Qh6 16.fxe5 Ncxe5 17.d4 Ng6 and black has compensation, but white is better.  I feel that black should be able to hold the endgame, although in practice this could be difficult.

I still would not mind playing the Traxler though.


I just noticed this.  Thanks very much for these ideas.  I'll look at them and let you know what I think.  It'd be much fun if the Traxler actually were playable.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #94 - 03/08/11 at 22:20:38
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This will be a rollback to a earlier conversation in this thread.   

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 

Markovich, you have asked about what black can do about the simple 7.d3 and 8.Be3.  From what I have analyzed, black still needs some help, but so far can achieve good compensation for the pawn.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 and now two variations:

A: 7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6
B: 7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4

A: I believe this variation to be effectively refuted.  There are two main variations.

7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qh5 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.c3 Bb6 13.a4 a5 14.h3 Raf8 15.Qe2 Kd8 16.0-0-0 and white is clearly better in position and pawn.

7…Nd4 8.Be3 d6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nbd2 Nxb3 11.axb3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Rf8 13.0-0 and black has no compensation.

B: I think this may be black’s only real try.  Two variations:

B1:  This line is just bad for black.

7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qg6 11.Nc3 Raf8 12.Qe2 Kd8 13.0-0-0 and black has no compensation for the pawn.

B2: I believe this line to be best.

7…d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nbd2 g5 12.Qe2 Bd7 13.0-0-0 g4 14.Ne1 Rhf8 15.g3 Rae8 16.Ng2 Na5 17.Nh4 Nxb3+ 18.Nxb3 Kd8 and black has nice compensation

This is great compared to previous lines, but white has a better move.

Critical is 11.Nc3! Raf8 12.0-0 Nd7 13.Qe2 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Kd8 15.f4 Qh6 16.fxe5 Ncxe5 17.d4 Ng6 and black has compensation, but white is better.  I feel that black should be able to hold the endgame, although in practice this could be difficult.

I still would not mind playing the Traxler though.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #93 - 03/08/11 at 14:39:24
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Fllg wrote on 02/26/11 at 18:03:34:
Jan Gustafsson has played 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 with Black today in the German Bundesliga and won the game. 

Perhaps in the training session with Svidler last week (see his blog) he has been convinced about Blacks chances, since on his DVD he had expressed some doubts if Black gets enough compensation.

Or he simply wanted to avoid the opponents preparation. Tongue


Gustafsson has now annotated this game:
Bulski - Gustafsson
http://www.jan-gustafsson.de/partieanalysen/partieanalyse/match/43/
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #92 - 03/07/11 at 18:29:36
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 21:35:35:
That's still much smaller than the +- you once claimed.
There is also Micawber's 12...Bb7 13.0-0 c5 of course.


Two variations:

8.Qf3 Be7
9.Be2 O-O
10.Nc3 Nd5
11.Nh3 f5                    11...Rb8
12.Nxd5 cxd5               12.a3 Be6
13.d4 e4                      13.O-O c5 (There are others)
14.Qe3 +/=                  14.Qe4 Re8
                                     15.Bf3 Nf6
                                     16.Qxe5 Bd6
                                     17.Qg5 Qc7
                                     18.Kh1! Nc6
                                     19.d3 Nd4
                                     20.Nf4 Bf5                            (20...Nxc2 21.Nxe6 Rxe6 22.Rb1 +/=)

                                     21.Bd1 Re5 (Others?)
                                     22.f3 +/= to +/-
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #91 - 03/07/11 at 09:51:02
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 21:35:35:
That's still much smaller than the +- you once claimed.
There is also Micawber's 12...Bb7 13.0-0 c5 of course.

sloughter wrote on 03/07/11 at 02:31:50:

That is a practical evaluation. It is either a win, loss or draw theoretically. There is nothing in between. If it is +/= it is a win. If it is equal it is a draw. To be an advantage it must be convertible with best play by both sides always to a win. We don't have a theoretical category called "almost winning" at the end of the game.

We are not at the end of the game. If you around move 15 were capable of calculating everything until the end of the game you would be WCh. So your argument is flawed.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #90 - 03/07/11 at 02:42:01
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The normal interpretation of +/= is something like, it should be drawn with best play but more difficult for Black to find the correct moves. If you mean winning, you write +-.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #89 - 03/07/11 at 02:31:50
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 21:35:35:
That's still much smaller than the +- you once claimed.
There is also Micawber's 12...Bb7 13.0-0 c5 of course.


That is a practical evaluation. It is either a win, loss or draw theoretically. There is nothing in between. If it is +/= it is a win. If it is equal it is a draw. To be an advantage it must be convertible with best play by both sides always to a win. We don't have a theoretical category called "almost winning" at the end of the game.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #88 - 03/06/11 at 21:35:35
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That's still much smaller than the +- you once claimed.
There is also Micawber's 12...Bb7 13.0-0 c5 of course.
  
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Re: What to do against 4.Ng5 in the two knights?
Reply #87 - 03/06/11 at 19:47:07
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[quote author=7F75757E390 link=1297695057/86#86 date=1299427170]In this line the position after 15.Qe3 looks quite disorganized for White an instead of taking on g2 Black may do better to keep the initiative with 15... f5 intending to push forward against the poor king on e1. Black has at least decent compensation if not more.

To play moves like 12.a3 and 13. b4 while underdeveloped is surely asking for punishment 




As for 13.b4; here is how I intend to meet f5

13.b4 Nb7 14.O-O f5 15.Bc4! e4 16.Qe2 Bf6 17.Rb1 Qd7 18.Bb2 Nd6 19.Bb3 f4 20.Nxd5 Bxd5 21.f3 = to +/=
  
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