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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why do you allow the Ruy? (Read 21040 times)
Pingudon
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #8 - 03/19/11 at 18:17:08
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Thanks a lot. And Markovich thanks for moving and not deleting  Wink Great answers. I think I will give 1...e5 a try
  
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #7 - 03/19/11 at 15:52:38
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I want to play the most complicated and strategically rich positions. The Ruy Lopez leads to such positions. The complicated positions are the most fun to play. 

  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #6 - 03/19/11 at 15:49:41
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It's easy to think that 1...e5 allows White a huge range of oddball responses but, then again, so do most other responses to 1.e4.  For example, against the Sicilian, there's 2.Nc3, 2.f4, 2.c3, 2.Nf3 and 3.Bb5+, 2.Na3 and 3.Bb5, 2.b3, 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3, 2.b4, 2.Nf3 followed by 3.b4, 2.a3, 2.Bc4 and even 2.a4.

The Sicilian may well, objectively speaking, be Black's best response to 1.e4, but as someone who used to play it regularly, I gave it up because I found 2.Nf3, 3.Bb5(+) and related lines hard to play against, as it tends to lead to closed, manoeuvring games that require a high level of positional understanding, and 2.c3 was also awkward.

Although the Ruy is the most critical test of 1...e5, as Matemax mentioned, if White goes for the most critical lines it also tends to give Black, rather than White, the choice of variation.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #5 - 03/19/11 at 15:45:56
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Roger Williamson wrote on 03/19/11 at 13:36:42:
The Lopez is so dense that White cannot know all the theory, and incorporating a new variation in something like the Chigorin takes a matter of hours, rather than the weeks it requires to switch from, say, the Najdorf to the Kan.(cut).


I am reminded of what John Nunn wrote in Secrets of Practical Chess:

There is  a wide range of possibilities to choose from "(...). All these are viable lines, so there is no need to panic. They all lead to the same general type of position, so that the experience you have gained with your former line will not be wasted. The general principles governing play with these Tchigorin structures will still be valid in your new line. Moreover, all the effort you have put into leaning how to combat earlier deviations by White will remain valid. Instead of facing a major overhaul, only a minor modification will be necessary" 

This raises the question: why play the Lopez as White? One answer from the Dutch coach IM Merijn van Delft:

"Many people are reluctant to take up the Ruy Lopez as White since there seems to be so much theory you have to know. But in fact the amount of theory you need to know to get started with the Ruy Lopez is quite limited. Essential knowledge includes something against 3...f5, something about the Open Spanish, knowing what the Marshall is and how you can avoid it, and the basic knight manoeuvre Nbd2-f1-g3. Model games can teach you a lot of ideas and a typical classic is Fischer-Shocron, Mar del Plata 1959 from My 60 Memorable Games. 
(From a note in Chess Vibes Openings).
  
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #4 - 03/19/11 at 15:28:34
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Markovich wrote on 03/19/11 at 14:57:54:
I moved this here because it really is about repertoire considerations, not the Spanish per se.

I disagree with the premise of the OP that the half-open systems are easier to play than 1...e5.   Quite the reverse, I think.

'

I agree with you.... all the other systems he suggested are harder to play. Ruy is truly just great. if I couldn't play 1... e5 I think i'd quit chess on the spot. You have to consider that there is some style choice too.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #3 - 03/19/11 at 14:57:54
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I moved this here because it really is about repertoire considerations, not the Spanish per se.

I disagree with the premise of the OP that the half-open systems are easier to play than 1...e5.   Quite the reverse, I think.
  

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Roger Williamson
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #2 - 03/19/11 at 13:36:42
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The Lopez is so dense that White cannot know all the theory, and incorporating a new variation in something like the Chigorin takes a matter of hours, rather than the weeks it requires to switch from, say, the Najdorf to the Kan.

White struggles for an advantage.

You are less likely to be ambushed by a dangerous novelty.

  The King's Gambit, Scotch and Italian can be either sharp, or reminiscent of the Lopez

The best play it, and have always played it.

It's prominent in classic chess literature, so there is no lack of literary exposition as there might be in something like the Caro.

You can choose from dry technical lines, gambits, and unfathomably complicated closed systems.

White can't play the c3 Sicilian against 1... e5.

  Those are the reasons I personally prefer it, anyway.  I feel less tortured when subjected to the Spanish torture.
  
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Matemax
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Re: Why do you allow the Ruy?
Reply #1 - 03/19/11 at 13:34:10
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Playing 1...e5 is probably the most solid way to meet 1.e4. White's play against this is based on the idea to remove the e5-pawn and get a majority in the centre. The direct ways to do this are 2.d4 and 2.f4 - both are playable but should not lead to an advantage for White. Therefore White usually goes 2.Nf3 (sometimes 2.Nc3 to follow up with 3.f4) and Black now can protect the e5-pawn with either 2...d6 or 2...Nc6 or play for counterattack with 2...Nf6. 2...Nc6 asks White the question: "How are you going to continue to play against my e5-pawn?" One way is the Scotch with 3.d4 - theoretically and practically speaking Black is IMO more than OK at the moment with the Mieses Variation (because White has to slightly overexpand himself with the e5-move). Another way is to play a somewhat "neutral" move with 3.Bc4 and either slow down the play or try for an immediate attack (mostly against f7). If Black goes 3...Bc5 White may return to the idea of central dominance by playing the still dangerous Evans Gambit with 4.b4 followed by c3 and d4.

After all the mentioned moves and variations (from Kings Gambit via Italian to Scotch) somehow miss White's main idea after 1.e4 - to play against e5-pawn. Therefore we arrive at 3.Bb5 - the Ruy Lopez. Surprisingly 3.Bb5 does not immediately threaten to win the pawn with BxN followed by Nxe5 because of the counterattack ...Qd4 netting the e4-pawn.

And here we arrive at the beauty of the Ruy Lopez - White is trying to play for long-time pressure against e5 or forcing Black to play e5xd4 at some convinient moment. On the other hand Black has nearly a free hand to choose a variation - he can play very sharp lines (starting from 3...f5) or very solid ones (e.g. going for RL-Main-Line or the Breyer).

So why allow White to play the Ruy? Because as Black we (often) have the choice of variation - we mostly will be better prepared. If White really wants to "torture" Black he has to go for the main lines - if he deviates (e.g. with Qe2 or d3 or Bc6) at some point, play usually is less critical and tends to become equal.

  
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Pingudon
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Why do you allow the Ruy?
03/19/11 at 12:47:42
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I mean... the Ruy seems to me the most difficult to master when playing black. It is much easier to learn The French, Caro, Scandinavian. White can take you to the scotch, Evans, Italian etc. If you want to study a lot the you can choose the sicilian that have a better score.  Perhaps you are just romantic? Thanks a lot for your answers.
  
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