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Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) (Read 23831 times)

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #6 - 04/13/11 at 08:41:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	trw wrote on 04/13/11 at 02:45:09: Stigma wrote on 04/13/11 at 00:17:12: Kramnik never has been more than "first among equals", at best. That is a joke right? I have never heard a World Champion referred to as 'first' among equals. Is this supposed to be an Augustus reference? I don't know about Augustus, but the paradoxical "First among equals" is a common description of Mikhail Botvinnik, who despite not being that much stronger than his closest competitors (Reshevsky, Fine, Bronstein, Smyslov, Keres, Tal, Petrosian) nevertheless managed to hold the World Champion title for a total of roughly 13 years! The situation at the top since Kasparov's 2005 retirement is similar: Kramnik, Anand, Topalov, Carlsen and Aronian are all great players, but they are also evenly enough matched that none of them so far has managed to dominate top-level chess like Kasparov, Karpov, Fischer and Lasker did in their best years. If you think it's an insult to Kramnik to compare him with the great Botvinnik, then you're the one who's joking

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #5 - 04/13/11 at 06:49:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik is my favourite annotator. Check his comments on his own games in New in Chess magazine. Very instructional and fun to read. I can't remember the game, but there was one game he commented twice a few years ago. First as typical comments would look like, then looking deeper into the positions often changing exclamation marks to dubious marks et c. Back in the old days, I always cheered for Karpov vs Kasparov as I liked his style of play better. [I also always cheered for Soviet vs Canada in ice hockey for the same reason.] I'm not so fond of Karpov's comments of games. I have high hopes for the forthcoming Karolyi books. You can also have a look at what Kramnik thinks of Karpov: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=61

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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trw YaBB Moderator Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #4 - 04/13/11 at 02:45:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/13/11 at 00:17:12: Kramnik never has been more than "first among equals", at best. That is a joke right? I have never heard a World Champion referred to as 'first' among equals. Is this supposed to be an Augustus reference? Anyways, I have always enjoyed every second I spent studying Kramnik's games. They've helped me immensely. One of the best things I ever did was buy Kramnik's path to the top. And if you want some beautiful Kramnik games check his demolition of the Olympiad in Manilla 1992.


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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #3 - 04/13/11 at 01:32:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 04/13/11 at 00:45:09: Stigma wrote on 04/13/11 at 00:17:12: Karpov just had the very bad luck of being contemporary with nr.1 Karpov's bad luck was good luck for all chess lovers. If you weren't around in the 80's you have no idea what impact the K-K matches had. I was around, sort of. But sadly I was only just learning the rules when the two Ks played their 4th match in Seville. Kasparov's Test of Time was one of my very first chess books though, with a chapter on the Moscow marathon match. The fascination with Karpov came later, thanks largely to the chapter on prophylaxis in Dvoretsky and Yusupov's Positional Play. Allow me to post a couple of inspired Kramnik attacks too, and at the same time test Jesse Gersensons new and improved Chessflash code: Download game in pgn format Download game in pgn format

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #2 - 04/13/11 at 00:45:09	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/13/11 at 00:17:12: Karpov just had the very bad luck of being contemporary with nr.1 Karpov's bad luck was good luck for all chess lovers. If you weren't around in the 80's you have no idea what impact the K-K matches had. I found Karpov's attacking games always very instructive; I'm not sure if I can say the same about Kramnik's. Karpov,A (2700) - Kortchnoi,V (2670) [B78] Kandidatenmatch finale Moskwa (2), 1974 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.h4 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.0-0-0 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.h5 Nxh5 15.g4 Nf6 16.Nde2 Qa5 17.Bh6 Bxh6 18.Qxh6 Rfc8 19.Rd3 R4c5 20.g5 Rxg5 21.Rd5 Rxd5 22.Nxd5 Re8 23.Nef4 Bc6 24.e5 Bxd5 25.exf6 exf6 26.Qxh7+ Kf8 27.Qh8+ 1-0 Karpov,A (2710) - Sax,G (2560) [B81] Linares Linares, 1983 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.Rg1 Be7 8.Be3 Nc6 9.Qe2 Bd7 10.h4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 e5 12.Be3 Bc6 13.Qd3 Qa5 14.0-0-0 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 d5 16.Qb3 dxe4 17.Bc4 Rf8 18.Rd5 Bxd5 19.Bxd5 Rd8 20.Bc4 Bb4 21.c3 b5 22.Be2 Bd6 23.Qd5 Ke7 24.Bc5 Bxc5 25.Qxe5+ Kd7 26.Qxc5 Qc7 27.Qf5+ Ke7 28.Qxe4+ Kd7 29.Qf5+ Ke7 30.Re1 Rd6 31.Bc4+ Kd8 32.Bxb5 a6 33.Ba4 g6 34.Qf3 Kc8 35.Re7 Rd1+ 36.Kxd1 Qxe7 37.Qa8+ Kc7 38.Qa7+ Kd6 39.Qb6+ 1-0 Karpov,A (2725) - Van der Wiel,J (2465) [B66] IBM Amsterdam, 1980 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd2 a6 8.0-0-0 h6 9.Be3 Bd7 10.f3 Qc7 11.g4 Ne5 12.h4 b5 13.Rg1 h5 14.g5 Ng8 15.Be2 Rb8 16.f4 b4 17.Nb1 Ng4 18.Bxa6 g6 19.Rgf1 Nxe3 20.Qxe3 Ne7 21.f5 gxf5 22.exf5 e5 23.f6 exd4 24.Rxd4 Be6 25.fxe7 Bg7 26.Re4 Qa5 27.Rxe6 Qxa6 28.Rxf7 Kxf7 29.e8Q+ Rbxe8 30.g6+ Kg8 31.Rxe8+ Bf8 32.Qe6+ 1-0 Kasparov,G (2740) - Karpov,A (2700) [A29] Wch-34 Sevilla (2), 1987 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 Bb4 5.Bg2 0-0 6.0-0 e4 7.Ng5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Re8 9.f3 e3 10.d3 d5 11.Qb3 Na5 12.Qa3 c6 13.cxd5 cxd5 14.f4 Nc6 15.Rb1 Qc7 16.Bb2 Bg4 17.c4 dxc4 18.Bxf6 gxf6 19.Ne4 Kg7 20.dxc4 Rad8 21.Rb3 Nd4 22.Rxe3 Qxc4 23.Kh1 Nf5 24.Rd3 Bxe2 25.Rxd8 Rxd8 26.Re1 Re8 27.Qa5 b5 28.Nd2 Qd3 29.Nb3 Bf3 30.Bxf3 Qxf3+ 31.Kg1 Rxe1+ 32.Qxe1 Ne3 0-1 I don't think the most dominating player of all time ever has been dominated like this.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) Reply #1 - 04/13/11 at 00:17:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am a big Karpov fan, so maybe I'm not objective... First thought is that they are very similar players. As for difference, it's my impression that Kramnik is even more of a technical/endgame player than Karpov. Karpov would often tire his opponents with long, drawn-out positional middlegames, keeping many pieces on the board. Before also outplaying them in the endgame, of course. Like all great players they can both also play beautiful attacking chess when the position calls for it; so to view them stereotypically as only positional/technical players would be wrong. I remember Julian Hodgson (?) claiming just before the Kasparov-Kramnik 2000 WCh match, that Kramnik had everything Karpov had, only better. And Kramnik's games up to the present will certainly give you more up-to-date openings, against significantly better-prepared opponents. But while Karpov dominated the chess world for almost a decade, Kramnik never has been more than "first among equals", at best. Then you can argue if Kramnik has stronger opponents that's not his fault. Statistician Jeff Sonas concluded, in an article series for Chessbase, that Karpov (rather than Fischer or Lasker) had to be considered the second most dominant player of all time. Karpov just had the very bad luck of being contemporary with nr.1 (guess who that might be), which is the only reason Fischer and Lasker even come close!

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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bicycle YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 21 Joined: 10/22/10	Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) 04/12/11 at 23:44:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	How do they compare? Any thoughts on who's games might be more instructive or interesting to examine?


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