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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?) (Read 23815 times)
dfan
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #36 - 02/24/12 at 18:22:56
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bicycle wrote on 02/24/12 at 03:47:30:
The reviews of Marin' Learn from the Legends and  Giddins' 50 Essential Chess Lessons were pretty compelling.  I've added them to my list.

Learn from the Legends is a great book but really dense with information. Marin does an awesome job (perhaps the best I've seen) at presenting big trees of variations in a compelling way, but they're still big trees of variations.

All of Giddins' books (except perhaps How to Build Your Chess Opening Repertoire, which is fine but kind of specialized) are really super and targeted at exactly your level. He knows just how much information to present to be useful without being overwhelming.
  
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Alias
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #35 - 02/24/12 at 07:55:41
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Stigma wrote on 04/13/11 at 12:42:57:
Alias wrote on 04/13/11 at 06:49:07:

You can also have a look at what Kramnik thinks of Karpov: http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=61


Thanks for the link. This comment on Karpov's weaknesses puzzled me:

Quote:
- I think he did not pay attention to strategy. As I have already told, he easily forgot about the things that had happened on the board. Probably, he did not have a sufficiently deep strategic thread of the play. Karpov is a chess player of a great number of short, two to three move combinations: he transferred his knight, seized the space, weakened a pawn. In my view, he was not a strategic player by nature.


But those kinds of mini-plans are precisely the foundation of strategy, aren't they? Does Kramnik really mean that Karpov is relatively weak at finding longer, deeper plans? That's quite a controversial point of view.


Some thoughts on this by Aagaard http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=947
  

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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #34 - 02/24/12 at 03:47:30
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Thanks for the thoughts, suggestions and encouragement, I appreciate them.  

Funny that you mention Reinfeld dfan, I've enjoyed the Capablanca games I've played over thus far so much that I've already been looking for another collection of his games to add to CBCE and, I was a little surprised to learn that Reinfeld still seems to be the best general collection of Capablanca games available in english.

The Life & Games of Akiva Rubinstein: Volume 1: Uncrowned King by Donaldson is also in the cart, so to speak (though I'm not sure at what rating it would be wise to read it).   

The reviews of Marin' Learn from the Legends and  Giddins' 50 Essential Chess Lessons were pretty compelling.  I've added them to my list.

A quote from Alias' excellent link earlier in the thread:  

"...there is something mysterious about his play, no one else could cope with things like he did. It is easier for me to talk about Karpov because his collection of games was my first chess book. I studied his work when I was a child, later I played quite a few games against him. He is a versatile chess player, a good tactician who brilliantly calculates lines and positionally very strong. He also has a distinctive feature. Funnily enough, he has effectively denied Steinitz's pronouncement: if you have an advantage you must attack, otherwise, you will lose it. When having an edge, Karpov often marked time and still gained the advantage! I don't know anyone else who could do that, it's incredible. I was always impressed and delighted by this skill. When it looked like it was high time to start a decisive attack, Karpov played a3, h3, and his opponent's position collapsed."             Kramnik on Karpov

http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=61   
  
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gwnn
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #33 - 02/22/12 at 09:44:02
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Giddins' 50 Essential Chess Lessons is also nice. Simple, clear explanations and a lot of (to me and some other reviewers) unknown games from the Soviet Union!
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #32 - 02/21/12 at 17:43:34
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The first player I studied for the endgame was Rubinstein. 

There's an excellent book by Marin, Learn from the Legends , which won the Chess Cafe book of the year award in 2005. He covers some of the great endgame players of all time in a very entertaining fashion.
  
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dfan
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #31 - 02/21/12 at 13:47:19
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Capablanca's Best Chess Endings is a great place to start for a B player. Chernev is definitely an old-style chess annotator (breathless prose, nonstop praise for the subject, seems like the other player never had a chance) but I grew up on him and Reinfeld and still really enjoy that style as a break from today's more dry approach. He can oversimplify things a bit but I think that's correct to do at that level. The way that he makes endgames look easy and enjoyable is also very motivating.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #30 - 02/21/12 at 04:11:07
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You certainly can't go wrong with Capablanca, have fun!
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #29 - 02/21/12 at 01:09:32
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My apologies for not responding to inquiries about my playing strength and such.  I stopped playing chess for awhile to pursue other interests and kind of forgot about this thread  Embarrassed   

I left my rating out of the initial post intentionally because I was interested in the question at hand generally more so then how it would apply to my personal needs.  I have read all the responses and found much of the discussion quite interesting.  My thanks to all who took the time to offer their thoughts on the subject.  

I am a B player.  And very much enjoy playing over master games (particularly those that have been commented by the players themselves).  Most of the game collections I have are of players with attacking styles (Shirov, Kasparov, Alekhine ect) and I thought it would be good to add some positional players to the mix, so to speak.  Karpov and Kramnik where the first to come to mind as I'd read a bit about them and admire both players (though I'd not played over many of their games).  The impression I got here is that these two guys would not be the most instructive for someone of my playing strength (particularly Karpov), so I've decided to hold off on them for awhile.  Instead I'll be going over the games of Capablanca (Best Chess Endings) Botvinnik (One Hundred Selected Games) and Fischer (My 60 Memorable Games) probably in that order.  I'd read elsewhere that Capablanca and Botvinnik are pretty instructive for a fairly wide range of playing strengths (not so sure about Fischer, but have heard great things about the book mentioned above).

Thanks again everybody, I very much enjoyed the discussion!         
 
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #28 - 04/17/11 at 16:46:38
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bicycle wrote on 04/12/11 at 23:44:05:
How do they compare?  Any thoughts on who's games might be more instructive or interesting to examine? 


It is more instructive to study games annotated by the player themselves, with detailed annotations explaining their thought processes and placing them under close scrutiny. Yasser Seirawan's 'Chess Duels' is a glowing example of such a book. 

As for Karpov vs. Kramnik - if you don't study both you really are missing out as far as your chess development is concerned.
  

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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #27 - 04/16/11 at 21:31:09
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It really is important to state your general level of strength when asking a question like this.  

I don't think that I'm strong enough myself (USCF 2240) to say whether studying Karpov's games or Kramnik's would more benefit a strong player's play.  If I knew the answer I would perhaps be a strong player myself.  I do think I'm qualified to say that the vast majority of amateur players should not entertain this question, but should instead devote themselves to the study of games that reveal more fundamental ideas.  I recoil from the image of some 1650-rated player plowing into either Kramnick's games or Karpov's.  Nor would I recommend the games of Smyslov.  That's my opinion, and if expressing it is "lecturing" then life is tough, but I will express it.

Alias wrote on 04/14/11 at 07:38:04:
Karpov/Kramnik vs Morphy/Spielmann:

Why is all-out attacks so important? I like Michael Stean's book "Simple Chess" and players playing simple (looking) chess. Is it really so bad playing sound chess putting the pieces on good squares and do the best of the positions without going for attacks all the time?

I know the importance of tactics. Kramnik and Karpov are up for it when necessary.


You're knocking down a straw man.  Nobody said you should play for attacks all the time.  By way of analogy, improving players should learn the technical endings, but that doesn't mean that they should always be striving to reduce the game to a technical endgame.

But when it comes to that, yes, your average improving player would do much better to study the games of Lev Zilbermints and play the BDG all the time, than study the games of these deep positional players.

"Karpov and Kramnick are up for attacks when the need arises."  How very nice for Karpov and for Kramnick.  But what about bicycle?
  

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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #26 - 04/16/11 at 20:40:34
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I have the utmost respect and admiration for Karpov's chess, and I know that he played some beautiful attacking games.  However, I don't think I'm alone in finding his moves very difficult to understand.  He probably plays more moves that I don't understand than any other top player, and I remember reading in multiple books that many strong GMs feel the same way.  One was an English GM and I think one was Bareev in one of Dvoretsky's books, but I can't remember.  Actually I feel like I only really understand Karpov's games when Dvoretsky explains them to me (most of them, that is).  I have Karpov's own book on his best games and found that I didn't really learn anything from it.

Edit: Here's a quote from GM Howell's Essential Chess Endings: "I don't think there was anything wrong with approaching the rook immediately with 3...Kd5 but when I'm playing through a Karpov game I can only ever predict about 10% of the moves."

So for an improving player, I'd recommend some other "positional" player, like Smyslov.  I actually don't seem to learn a lot from game collections of modern top players (I have Kramnik's Life and Games, for instance), but I've learned a tremendous amount from Smyslov, Taimanov, Bronstein, etc.  Those games often resemble a little more closely the games that we sub-IM players play; we don't have our openings worked out to move 25, etc. 
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #25 - 04/15/11 at 18:57:33
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It's not as if Karpov's style was obtusely defensive like Petrosian's. He attacked vigorously when the position demanded it. Play through any major match that he was involved in. His games are really sensible. The three matches against Polugaevsky, Spassky, and Korchnoi in 1974, are well worth studying in depth. 

Ok, the thing that makes Karpov unique was his willingness to go the long way around to make sure he won. But he played for the win far more than Petrosian ever did. His endgame technique has informed every player since his day and is well worth studying for anyone regardless of their rating.
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #24 - 04/15/11 at 17:39:48
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bicycle wrote on 04/12/11 at 23:44:05:
How do they compare?  Any thoughts on who's games might be more instructive or interesting to examine? 


In my opinion for a typical player Kramnik's active positional style would be make a much more approachable role model than Karpov.

However, there are probably much more well analysed Karpov games out there - Mednis's book or Kasparov's MGP 5 and the Kv K matches.  THe Karolyi book on Karpov's endgame in pretty thorough too.ANd you can learn prophlaxis from Tolya.

  I really enjoyed the Kramnik Chessbase DVD as well as Khalifmans ORATK.
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #23 - 04/14/11 at 11:49:27
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Alias wrote on 04/14/11 at 11:01:19:
Paddy wrote on 04/14/11 at 10:00:06:
Alias wrote on 04/14/11 at 07:38:04:
Karpov/Kramnik vs Morphy/Spielmann:

Why is all-out attacks so important? I like Michael Stean's book "Simple Chess" and players playing simple (looking) chess. Is it really so bad playing sound chess putting the pieces on good squares and do the best of the positions without going for attacks all the time?

I know the importance of tactics. Kramnik and Karpov are up for it when necessary.


Here we go again. The forum has seen many such discussions, so let's not start another one here. All I would say is that It depends really whether one subscribes to the theory that the development of the chess player does best to follow, more or less, the lines of the development of the modern game itself (starting with the Morphy era). The best games of he past form the basis of a "good education" in chess. I subscribe to that theory. It pleases me logically, it chimes with my experience as a junior coach, and I happen to believe that there is also much enjoyment to be had that way. We play chess fun, don't we? Wink


All fine, but the original poster asked about Karpov and Kramnik and he didn't state his rating. Can't we just answer questions without lecturing?


Not lecturing, just trying to help.  Smiley

Depending on his strength and experience, studying Karpov and/or Kramnik might not be the best investment of his available study time at this point in his development.
  
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Re: Karpov vs Kramnik for study(?)
Reply #22 - 04/14/11 at 11:01:19
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Paddy wrote on 04/14/11 at 10:00:06:
Alias wrote on 04/14/11 at 07:38:04:
Karpov/Kramnik vs Morphy/Spielmann:

Why is all-out attacks so important? I like Michael Stean's book "Simple Chess" and players playing simple (looking) chess. Is it really so bad playing sound chess putting the pieces on good squares and do the best of the positions without going for attacks all the time?

I know the importance of tactics. Kramnik and Karpov are up for it when necessary.


Here we go again. The forum has seen many such discussions, so let's not start another one here. All I would say is that It depends really whether one subscribes to the theory that the development of the chess player does best to follow, more or less, the lines of the development of the modern game itself (starting with the Morphy era). The best games of he past form the basis of a "good education" in chess. I subscribe to that theory. It pleases me logically, it chimes with my experience as a junior coach, and I happen to believe that there is also much enjoyment to be had that way. We play chess fun, don't we? Wink


All fine, but the original poster asked about Karpov and Kramnik and he didn't state his rating. Can't we just answer questions without lecturing?
  

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