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Poll closed Question: Between the mentioned openings for Black is better:
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Grunfeld    
  60 (64.5%)
King's Indian    
  33 (35.5%)




Total votes: 93
« Created by: rossia on: 06/26/11 at 18:54:34 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Grunfeld vs King's Indian (Read 58611 times)
Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #54 - 07/06/11 at 07:09:00
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Markovich wrote on 07/05/11 at 21:03:31:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 07/05/11 at 07:54:43:
If someone plays both Grünfeld and King's Indian, then the annoying anti-Grünfeld English lines with c4, Nf3, Nc3 with or without Qa4+ can be diverted by simply following a King's Indian setup. Also I suppose c4, Nc3 with the aim of e4 without a preliminary d4 to prevent a Grünfeld can be answered with a King's Indian as well.


If you adopt t this policy, you let people who play, for example, Khalifman's repertoire take you into a KID Classical every single time.  I personally I don't equate giving my opponent control over what system I play with having an extra option.  Further the KID is a mighty complex and committal system to prepare just to face the English.  If that's synergy I'll take, umm, what's non-synergy?  Anergy?


I also had qualms about this combination of the King's Indian to avoid anti-Grünfeld lines, but then if this allows White to play the main-line King's Indian, then preventing the main-line King's Indian would mean allowing the anti-Grünfeld English lines. I suppose it depends on which lines the Grünfeld player would wish to face.
  

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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #53 - 07/05/11 at 21:03:31
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 07/05/11 at 07:54:43:
If someone plays both Grünfeld and King's Indian, then the annoying anti-Grünfeld English lines with c4, Nf3, Nc3 with or without Qa4+ can be diverted by simply following a King's Indian setup. Also I suppose c4, Nc3 with the aim of e4 without a preliminary d4 to prevent a Grünfeld can be answered with a King's Indian as well.


If you adopt t this policy, you let people who play, for example, Khalifman's repertoire take you into a KID Classical every single time.  I personally I don't equate giving my opponent control over what system I play with having an extra option.  Further the KID is a mighty complex and committal system to prepare just to face the English.  If that's synergy I'll take, umm, what's non-synergy?  Anergy?
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #52 - 07/05/11 at 16:31:48
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trw wrote on 07/05/11 at 07:43:44:
Actually under the definition you just defined, the KID and Grunfeld synergize ie when someone plays a move order to prevent the Grunfeld the KID is still a playable alternative.


Well it's true you can start with ...Nf6 and ...g6, intending a Grunfeld, and then switch to a KID.  But I don't think you're getting "superior" lines of a KID, like you (arguably) are when playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 or 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5, for instance.  What lines do you have in mind?  In the Grunfeld, Black commits his pawn to d5 as soon as White plays Nc3, so I don't see how you could use the KID to avoid, say, the Bf4 lines, the Qb3 lines, etc.   

I suppose I could agree that you have the option to play the KID against an English move order, like 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6.  But I don't think this synergizes in the same way as the examples I gave earlier, because White still has his entire range of options to throw at Black (except, perhaps, some fianchetto lines).  I don't see what advantage Black has gained, unlike in the Nimzo/Benoni when you can avoid the Taimanov attack, for instance.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #51 - 07/05/11 at 13:50:53
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punter wrote on 07/01/11 at 01:25:48:
Quote:
nd I must admit I'm still not 100% sure what to play with white against the Grunfeld. My ideal would be a good sideline where I get good positions and black is out of their book + comfort zone, but I haven't found such a line yet and am not even sure it exists.


You may look into:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 Nd5 5.e4 Nc3 6.bc3 Bg7 7.Bg5 !?

Which is still quite rare but some pretty strong GM's were victims of it (Sasikrian, Negi, Svidler, Sutovsky all against lower rated opponents). It's quite annoying to meet and it's esialy to go wrong if you hadn't seen it before.


Thanks Punter, this is a very interesting anti-Grunfeld sideline. It may well be what I was looking for.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #50 - 07/05/11 at 12:17:33
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Well, I never - you're right; the index in Avrukh gives 3...d5 and the text 3...c6. They do say you should never judge a book by its cover, but not judging it by its index is a new one. Presumably at some point they must have been intending to give 3...d5, I suppose.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #49 - 07/05/11 at 07:54:43
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If someone plays both Grünfeld and King's Indian, then the annoying anti-Grünfeld English lines with c4, Nf3, Nc3 with or without Qa4+ can be diverted by simply following a King's Indian setup. Also I suppose c4, Nc3 with the aim of e4 without a preliminary d4 to prevent a Grünfeld can be answered with a King's Indian as well.
  

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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #48 - 07/05/11 at 07:43:44
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Actually under the definition you just defined, the KID and Grunfeld synergize ie when someone plays a move order to prevent the Grunfeld the KID is still a playable alternative.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #47 - 07/05/11 at 06:29:24
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Yes, the philosphical musings are of scant utility.   

Some openings synergize well with others: for instance, it makes sense to combine the Nimzo with the Benoni, because after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 you can't get a Nimzo anyway, and some of White's more dangerous tries against the Benoni are avoided.  The same is true of combining the Noteboom and Stonewall Dutch; after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.e3, Black doesn't have to play the Meran and can go 4...f5 with a Stonewall where White hasn't fianchettoed.  I know of no opening that synergizes with the Grunfeld like this.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #46 - 07/04/11 at 23:00:52
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Markovich wrote on 07/04/11 at 21:34:46:

But these meta-theoretical considerations are of scant utility.

Too true, the original question was of scant utility as well Smiley spoken like a true economist.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #45 - 07/04/11 at 21:34:46
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trw wrote on 07/04/11 at 20:11:25:
Caro Kann is also similar in alot of ways. The passivity black takes on hoping for a better endgame always. QGA really seems unrelated to Grunfeld. Related to KID sure, the burning your bridges for all out attack type opening is QGA.


I don't understand how you can associate the QGA with play for all-out attack. Much more typically Black weasels around and tries to get into a better ending. In that way I do think it compares to Alekhine's and the Gruenfeld.

But these meta-theoretical considerations are of scant utility.
  

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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #44 - 07/04/11 at 20:33:17
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The QGA and the Semi-Tarrasch relate to the Grunfeld pretty well because of similar pawn structures in several lines, I think.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #43 - 07/04/11 at 20:11:25
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Caro Kann is also similar in alot of ways. The passivity black takes on hoping for a better endgame always. QGA really seems unrelated to Grunfeld. Related to KID sure, the burning your bridges for all out attack type opening is QGA.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #42 - 07/04/11 at 19:16:52
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Markovich wrote on 07/04/11 at 16:02:34:

I'm not sure what these meta-theoretical questions have to do with anything, but I agree that the QGA has a Gruenfeldish look and feel, more indeed than any other anti-d4 system I can think of.


Semi-Tarrasch comes to mind as having greater similarity to the Grunfeld than anything else.

Another opening with significant similarity is the Petrosian QID, but white has to choose it.
  

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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #41 - 07/04/11 at 18:22:02
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/04/11 at 11:43:19:
Fllg, why do you think Avrukh goes for ...c6 and ....d5? The pdf on QC's site seems to suggest the opposite.


In the blog on Quality Chess Jacob Aagaard stated that the PDF is wrong. Answering the question which line is given against the fianchetto he wrote: "We recommend c6 and d5, the solid line."

In this context it should be mentioned that Avrukh wrote an article for the german magazine "Schach" which appeared this month. There he updates his recommendation for White in his "GM-Repertoire" after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Nf3 Nb6 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.e3 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Re1 when he looks at 10... e5, 10... Bd7 and 10... a5. He concludes that White is clearly better against the first two options.

After 10... a5 as his main line he follows among others the game Leitao-Caruana, Khanty Mansisk ol 2010 which went 11.Qe2 Be6 12.Rd1 Bc4 13.Qc2 Nb4 14.Qb1 e5. Here he deviates from the game and ends his analysis after move 22 saying "The position looks pretty balanced, but I would still prefer to play with the white pieces!".

It´s interesting to note that in the 6 games so far where the position after 14.Qb1 e5 has been reached White managed to score only one draw.
  
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Re: Grunfeld vs King's Indian
Reply #40 - 07/04/11 at 16:02:34
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/01/11 at 17:57:38:
Well there are some nice reasons for having both in your repertoire I guess, but like I mentioned earlier, the two defenses are radically different. I would think that the Queen's Gambit Accepted is closer in spirit, or maybe the Benko if you want a King's Fianchetto defence.  There are also some lines of the Slav and Semi Slav where Black fianchettoes his King's Bishop.  The Nimzo often focuses on play against the weakened c4 square.  Actually I think the Grunfeld is pretty unique and doesn't really have a "sister" opening that offers similar play.


I'm not sure what these meta-theoretical questions have to do with anything, but I agree that the QGA has a Gruenfeldish look and feel, more indeed than any other anti-d4 system I can think of. For one thing, there's that Smyslov line we talked about a year or two ago.

The KID would be about the last system I would play along with the Gruenfeld, if I wanted to stay current in theory of both. Does anyone below the professional level really need two systems?

But I think the Gruenfeld does indeed have a sister, and that is Alekhine's Defense. That system, interestingly, also fascinated Ernst Gruenfeld.
  

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