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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chess terminology worldwide (Read 76232 times)
Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #55 - 07/16/11 at 14:51:13
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I'm sorry, my translation was too superficial (or simply wrong), I should have given the original text in addition. The Kluge writes "Die (...) Rochade wurde im 16. Jh. eingeführt und hieß so nach der Bezeichnung des Turms (mhd. roch), ...", "the Rochade [i.e. the move] was introduced in the 16th century and was named after the term for the rook (Middle High German roch), ...", and so on (bold letters by Kluge, my italics). So, please blame me, but not the Kluge.

Later (maybe in the 18th century??), a suffix -ade was added, which has it's origin in the romance languages, one can find it in e.g. Marmelade, "jam", Kanonade, "cannonade", or Blockade, "blockade" (examples given by Kluge, p. 15).

Again my apologies!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #54 - 07/16/11 at 13:50:33
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Edward Winter (in http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/earliest.html ) found an early [the earliest?] mention of "isolated pawn" in 1810. Winter traces back "Isolani" to a game annotated by Leonhardt in Hamburger Nachrichten of 21 August 1910. So this first occurence was in a German text. Nimzowitsch later used "isolani" in his (English!) My System, 1929. With some frequency you find English chess authors reject this term as "foreign" and prefer the good ol' "isolated pawn". 

Quote:
[...] I'll translate roughly what the "Kluge" (a highly acknowledged etymological dictionary of German, 24th edition, Walter de Gruyter 2002, p. 768) has to say about it:

"The term Rochade was introduced in the 16th century, coming from the term for "rook" (Middle High German roch, from Middle Dutch roc, which is derived from Old French roc, which is from Spanish roque. [...]

I am somewhat puzzled by this explanation in "Kluge 2002", quoted by Zzz in reply #39. Yes, our castling (the move!) appears in the 16th century. We know it for sure for the famous Italian players Polerio, Paolo Boi, Leonardo di Cutri, in the second half of the 16th century. But they used a different term ("salta...") for it, nothing based on the root "roc" or "roque"! 

Van der Linde in Geschichte und Litteratur des Schachspiels (1874, p. 359) wrote about the Rochade:

Quote:
Ihre Entstehungszeit fällt für Frankreich um 1500—1560, Italien 1512—1561, Oesterreich 1577, Spanien (und Portugal) 1561—1597, England 1562—1614, Deutschland (nebst Holland, die skandinavischen Länder u. s. w.) in das 18. Jahrhundert (vgl. meine Geschichte der Rochade, Polerio S. 1 ff.). Obgleich die Prioritätsfrage zwischen Frankreich und Italien sich nicht urkundlich entscheiden lässt, so darf doch aus inneren Gründen geschlossen werden, dass die normale Rochade italienischen Ursprungs ist.  Was man jetzt die „italienische" oder aucli „freie" d. h. gesetzlose Rochade nennt, wobei die Plätze für Thurm und König willkürlich gewählt werden, ist ganz sicher eine spätere Entartung. Dass die grossen Meister des italienischen Schach in der zweiten Hälfte des XVI. Jahrhunderts ausschliesslich regelmässig rochirt haben, ist ein feststehendes Resultat der neuen Forschung.


Translation (Google):

Quote:
The genesis [of castling] falls to France for 1500-1560, Italy 1512-1561, Austria 1577, Spain (and Portugal) 1561-1597, England 1562-1614, Germany (along with Holland, the Scandinavian countries, etc.) in the 18th Century (see my story of castling, Polerio p. 1 et seq.) Although the question of priority between France and Italy can not be decided by a first documented mention, so it may be inferred from internal evidence that the normal castling is of Italian origin. What is now called the "Italian" or "free" i.e. lawless castling, randomly selecting the places for king and tower, is certainly a later degeneration. That the great masters of Italian chess in the second half of the XVI Century exclusively castled regularly is an established result of the new research.

But here Van der Linde has written about the genesis of the move, not the term "Rochade". The "Kluge" 2002 apparently took the genesis of the move for the genesis of the term. The linguistic situation seems complicated, however. For example, the Italian verb "arrocarsi" was originally used for 1-step movements of the king in the direction of his rook. A big difference to the Rochade! 

In his Das Schachspiel des 16. Jahrhunderts, Van der Linde had slightly favoured France as developing castling (again: the move! not the term), hinting at the Göttingen manuscript (1490 or so) with its French roots. But in the later source Geschichte... quoted above, he is more inclined that the move was developed (again: the move! not the term) in Italy. Some old sources only described the rule for the move, without explicitly giving it a name. Polerio wrote "salta di Rè all' ordinario". So I don't know when a name based on roc or a similar root (verb or noun, in some country's version) appeared, and whether it happened in France or Italy or elsewhere. 

Kluge is, in my opinion, wrong, when he writes: "The term Rochade was introduced in the 16th century, ..." Rochade, the German term, was a late, late link in that long chain (maybe 18th century). I doubt that even "arrocare" or arrocarsi or a French term can be found for our modern 0-0 in a source as early as in the 16th century. In the 17th century, perhaps.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #53 - 07/16/11 at 09:39:19
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TalJechin wrote on 07/15/11 at 20:21:52:
You don't change a language by writing a single letter. But if you start using a new word or give an existing word a new meaning AND get all your friends and their friends etc to start using it, the dictionaries will eventually change. Language and Chess are works in progress, you can't look up the future of them in a book, fortunately.

I very much agree with most of what you've written, especially with your last statement. The way new words / expressions / linguistic structures come into existence is very unpredictable. But at least sometimes one can find out with hindsight what has happened. I found a funny example:

Quote:
The second edition of Webster's New International Dictionary (1934) contained the word dord, as a chemical term meaning 'density'. The only problem was, that no such word exists, or as ever existed outside of Webster's. The background is that a contributor submitted "d" as the abbreviation for 'density'. Wanting to indicate that it could be written in upper or lower case, he wrote "D or d". A typesetter then misinterpreted this as a new word entry - dord. Alas, the charming word was deleted from the dictionary in 1940.


(Mikael Parkvall, Limits of Language, Battlebridge 2006, p. 174 - btw, this is a nice and entertaining book about a whole bunch of language related matters, and very readable also for laymen. If you stumble on it, have a look at it! I have no relations neither to the publisher nor to the author, it just happened that I was the very first individual that purchased that book, which is even noted in there - p. 337. I'm not joking!)

Coming back to Rockado vs. Rockada, Stefan's last suggestion of publishing "a small work 'Rockada ili Rockado?'" might be a good idea, if you want to leave your traces in a language! Stefan, especially you are in a good position to introduce chess neologisms, I would guess  Smiley

My proposal for German castling terminology (other languages have to go back to their own internal resources, of course) would be the following: Der Rochad is for 0-0-0, whereas either the established die Rochade or even the new coinage die Roche is for 0-0. The advantage of die Roche compared to die Rochade is that it's shorter - there's a general tendency for languages to express the more frequent concepts with shorter words than the rarer concepts, a sort of "economic principle". So the more common 0-0 would be expressed with a shorter word than the much more rarely encountered 0-0-0. Another benefit of this proposal is that you can very easily coin verbs from that: Rochen or the established rochieren could be used for castling short, and rochaden or rochadieren for castling long.  Smiley
For me this longish report is somewhere in the middle between absolute nonsense and a serious proposal. Please feel free to take it as serious as you want.

In addition, I also wanted to write about a more serious topic, but going through the latest postings, I got stuck with the term geïsoleerde pion, mentioned by MNb. Of course, I'm not in the position to call anybody's language use into question, especially if I don't speak that particular language at all. But because of the often noticed similarity between Dutch and German, I just wonder if geïsoleerde pion as a translation of "doubled pawns" is not some sort of complex typo, as it really seems to be quite similar to German isolierter Bauer, "isolated pawn"?!

Best regards so far,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #52 - 07/15/11 at 20:53:24
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Or publish a small work "Rockada ili Rockado?", with problems where you have to choose between 0-0 and 0-0-0. Send it to the clubs, and to the dictionaries. (How did Tartakower establish the name "Indisch"? By talking with friends?)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #51 - 07/15/11 at 20:21:52
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You don't change a language by writing a single letter. But if you start using a new word or give an existing word a new meaning AND get all your friends and their friends etc to start using it, the dictionaries will eventually change. Language and Chess are works in progress, you can't look up the future of them in a book, fortunately.

[quote author=63445556515E6F724555535B5542300 link=1309513381/50#50 date=1310760195][quote author=05303D1B343239383F510 link=1309513381/49#49 date=1310759191]Stefan, I think you missed the point...[/quote]
Why? Ask the President of the Bulgarian Chess Federation to write a kind letter to the editor of said dictionary (and other dictionaries, if there are more), explaining that their entry is incomplete, since Rockada is only for 0-0, while Rockado is used for 0-0-0. Where's the problem? Is it a crime to correct a serious error in such a standard work? And if successful, Bulgaria will become a favourite place for linguistic congresses, I am sure. So it's a win-win.[/quote]
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #50 - 07/15/11 at 20:03:15
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[quote author=05303D1B343239383F510 link=1309513381/49#49 date=1310759191]Stefan, I think you missed the point...[/quote]
Why? Ask the President of the Bulgarian Chess Federation to write a kind letter to the editor of said dictionary (and other dictionaries, if there are more), explaining that their entry is incomplete, since Rockada is only for 0-0, while Rockado is used for 0-0-0. Where's the problem? Is it a crime to correct a serious error in such a standard work? And if successful, Bulgaria will become a favourite place for linguistic congresses, I am sure. So it's a win-win.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #49 - 07/15/11 at 19:46:31
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[quote author=5C7B6A696E61504D7A6A6C646A7D0F0 link=1309513381/48#48 date=1310757888][quote author=4B7E73557A7C7776711F0 link=1309513381/47#47 date=1310757188][quote author=7C647A7F7876130 link=1309513381/46#46 date=1310750889][quote author=65524040330 link=1309513381/45#45 date=1310736274]
Hi Zzz!
"Rockado" or "Rockada" means the same (probably because it's not a Bulgarian word and noone knows how to pronounce it - I think "Rockado" is more utilized while "Rockada" is the word in our dictionary).. And "Small Rockado" or "Small Rockada" means 0-0, while "Big Rockado" or "Big Rockada" means 0-0-0.  :D[/quote]

Oooh, that's a pity! [highlight]It would be so nice to have a language which distinguishes between a strong, powerful, masculine [i]Rochado[/i] for 0-0-0 and a more tender, smaller, feminine [i]Rochada[/i] for 0-0!![/highlight]
Ooops, was that too macho? I'm sorry!  :-X[/quote]

Well, see it a chance to introduce the concept! All it takes is that you start using [i]der Rochade[/i] and [i]die Rochade[/i] and hope it catches on! ;)[/quote]
When in doubt Germans look in the "Duden" and find: [b]die Rochade.[/b] But Vass' post seems to indicate that there is a conflict between the actual use and the dictionary in Bulgaria. Better chances for a linguistic conspiracy, it seems to me.[/quote]

Stefan, I think you missed the point...
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #48 - 07/15/11 at 19:24:48
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[quote author=4B7E73557A7C7776711F0 link=1309513381/47#47 date=1310757188][quote author=7C647A7F7876130 link=1309513381/46#46 date=1310750889][quote author=65524040330 link=1309513381/45#45 date=1310736274]
Hi Zzz!
"Rockado" or "Rockada" means the same (probably because it's not a Bulgarian word and noone knows how to pronounce it - [highlight]I think "Rockado" is more utilized while "Rockada" is the word in our dictionary)[/highlight].. And "Small Rockado" or "Small Rockada" means 0-0, while "Big Rockado" or "Big Rockada" means 0-0-0.  :D[/quote]

Oooh, that's a pity! It would be so nice to have a language which distinguishes between a strong, powerful, masculine [i]Rochado[/i] for 0-0-0 and a more tender, smaller, feminine [i]Rochada[/i] for 0-0!!
Ooops, was that too macho? I'm sorry!  :-X[/quote]

Well, see it a chance to introduce the concept! All it takes is that you start using [i]der Rochade[/i] and [i]die Rochade[/i] and hope it catches on! ;)[/quote]
When in doubt Germans look in the "Duden" and find: [b]die Rochade.[/b] But Vass' post seems to indicate that there is a conflict between the actual use and the dictionary in Bulgaria. Better chances for a linguistic conspiracy, it seems to me.
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #47 - 07/15/11 at 19:13:08
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[quote author=7C647A7F7876130 link=1309513381/46#46 date=1310750889][quote author=65524040330 link=1309513381/45#45 date=1310736274][quote author=7E66787D7A74110 link=1309513381/41#41 date=1310728780]Dear Vass,

do I understand you correctly that [i]rockado[/i] is "0-0" and [i]rockada[/i] is "0-0-0"? I have a Bulgarian Grammar, but it's not easy to find a particular topic in it, as it's indexed quite poorly ("A Reference Grammar of Modern Bulgarian", by Ernest A. Scatton, Slavica Publishers, Inc., 1984). After reading your post, I had a short glance through it, but didn't find what I was looking for. So do the different endings [i]-o[/i] vs. [i]-a[/i] mark a gender distinction in Bulgarian, similar to the Romance languages, or do they express another concept (like size), or don't they have any "regular" meaning at all?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang[/quote]
Hi Zzz!
"Rockado" or "Rockada" means the same (probably because it's not a Bulgarian word and noone knows how to pronounce it - I think "Rockado" is more utilized while "Rockada" is the word in our dictionary).. And "Small Rockado" or "Small Rockada" means 0-0, while "Big Rockado" or "Big Rockada" means 0-0-0.  :D[/quote]

Oooh, that's a pity! It would be so nice to have a language which distinguishes between a strong, powerful, masculine [i]Rochado[/i] for 0-0-0 and a more tender, smaller, feminine [i]Rochada[/i] for 0-0!!
Ooops, was that too macho? I'm sorry!  :-X[/quote]

Well, see it a chance to introduce the concept! All it takes is that you start using [i]der Rochade[/i] and [i]die Rochade[/i] and hope it catches on! ;)
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #46 - 07/15/11 at 17:28:09
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Vass wrote on 07/15/11 at 13:24:34:
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/15/11 at 11:19:40:
Dear Vass,

do I understand you correctly that rockado is "0-0" and rockada is "0-0-0"? I have a Bulgarian Grammar, but it's not easy to find a particular topic in it, as it's indexed quite poorly ("A Reference Grammar of Modern Bulgarian", by Ernest A. Scatton, Slavica Publishers, Inc., 1984). After reading your post, I had a short glance through it, but didn't find what I was looking for. So do the different endings -o vs. -a mark a gender distinction in Bulgarian, similar to the Romance languages, or do they express another concept (like size), or don't they have any "regular" meaning at all?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

Hi Zzz!
"Rockado" or "Rockada" means the same (probably because it's not a Bulgarian word and noone knows how to pronounce it - I think "Rockado" is more utilized while "Rockada" is the word in our dictionary).. And "Small Rockado" or "Small Rockada" means 0-0, while "Big Rockado" or "Big Rockada" means 0-0-0.  Cheesy


Oooh, that's a pity! It would be so nice to have a language which distinguishes between a strong, powerful, masculine Rochado for 0-0-0 and a more tender, smaller, feminine Rochada for 0-0!!
Ooops, was that too macho? I'm sorry!  Lips Sealed
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #45 - 07/15/11 at 13:24:34
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/15/11 at 11:19:40:
Dear Vass,

do I understand you correctly that rockado is "0-0" and rockada is "0-0-0"? I have a Bulgarian Grammar, but it's not easy to find a particular topic in it, as it's indexed quite poorly ("A Reference Grammar of Modern Bulgarian", by Ernest A. Scatton, Slavica Publishers, Inc., 1984). After reading your post, I had a short glance through it, but didn't find what I was looking for. So do the different endings -o vs. -a mark a gender distinction in Bulgarian, similar to the Romance languages, or do they express another concept (like size), or don't they have any "regular" meaning at all?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang

Hi Zzz!
"Rockado" or "Rockada" means the same (probably because it's not a Bulgarian word and noone knows how to pronounce it - I think "Rockado" is more utilized while "Rockada" is the word in our dictionary).. And "Small Rockado" or "Small Rockada" means 0-0, while "Big Rockado" or "Big Rockada" means 0-0-0.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #44 - 07/15/11 at 13:24:29
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MNb wrote on 07/15/11 at 01:00:02:
That brings me to another remarkable difference. In English we speak of doubled pawns, ie plural. In Dutch it's geïsoleerde pion, ie singular. What about other languages?

Everything with dubbel (double), tripel is singular in dutch, ie dubbelganger
  

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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #43 - 07/15/11 at 12:49:01
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Opposite Colored Bishops is rather interesting to me. 

I always used to abbreviate them as OCB. But lately, I've seen BOC and BOOC.
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #42 - 07/15/11 at 12:00:21
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Quote:
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on Yesterday at 8:14pm:
Do other languages also use Isolani for an isolated pawn?

You can find it in some Dutch sources, but generally someone who uses the word is considered a wise guy/girl. Common is geïsoleerde pion.
That brings me to another remarkable difference. In English we speak of doubled pawns, ie plural. In Dutch it's geïsoleerde pion, ie singular. What about other languages?

Same question for: Opposite Coloured Bishops are called Ongelijke Lopers in Dutch, which literally means Unequal Bishops.

Finally (for today) an Octopus is a Knight firmly placed in the enemy's camp. The word was introduced in Dutch probably by IM Leon Pliester, after Kasparov planted a Knight on d3 in a famous game against Karpov and won. It's essential that the Knight controls 8 important squares. Is this used in other languages as well? Did Pliester invent it?


Isolani can be used but "isolerad bonde" = isolated pawn, is most common I think.

Doubled pawns can be both singular and plural in Swedish: en dubbelbonde på c-linjen; dubbla (dubblerade) bönder på e-linjen behöver inte vara en nackdel; etc etc

Opposite Coloured Bishops = olikfärgade löpare i.e different coloured bishops. Jokingly also 'olycksfärgade löpare', roughly "unluckycoloured bishops".

Don't remember hearing about "bläckfiskspringare", though the term would be understandable, but sounds a bit clumsy in Swedish. But a highly effectively placed piece is occasionally referred to as "spindeln i nätet" = 'the spider in the net', though that's an expression not too uncommon outside chess circles as well.
  
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Re: Chess terminology worldwide
Reply #41 - 07/15/11 at 11:19:40
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Dear Vass,

do I understand you correctly that rockado is "0-0" and rockada is "0-0-0"? I have a Bulgarian Grammar, but it's not easy to find a particular topic in it, as it's indexed quite poorly ("A Reference Grammar of Modern Bulgarian", by Ernest A. Scatton, Slavica Publishers, Inc., 1984). After reading your post, I had a short glance through it, but didn't find what I was looking for. So do the different endings -o vs. -a mark a gender distinction in Bulgarian, similar to the Romance languages, or do they express another concept (like size), or don't they have any "regular" meaning at all?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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