ChessPub Forum - Spanish repertoire

Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #150 - 08/02/11 at 16:25:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22: Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5? My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight. I think that 4.c3 is more challenging. Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3. If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best. After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2. If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better. 4...Nf6 5.d4 Bb6 is the best reply in my opinion.


	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #149 - 08/02/11 at 15:36:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5? My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight. I think that 4.c3 is more challenging. Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3. If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best. After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2. If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #148 - 08/01/11 at 17:14:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 08/01/11 at 12:13:40: It's all in the posts here if you read back. I don't doubt it even a second, but as I wrote I am recovering from a flu. I will include 13...c6 later. Thanks.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #147 - 08/01/11 at 12:13:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 08/01/11 at 09:38:00: What did Sokolov prescribe again? Moreover I would like some positional explanation why 14...Rf8 is met one way and 14...Re8 another. If Black tries the more active rook deployment, we exploit that his e-pawn is less well defended and play 15.Nc3. If he protects his e-pawn with 14...Re8, we don't go in for 15.Nc3 Ra6!, but instead try to exploit our knight's position on b5. It's all in the posts here if you read back. Sokolov put 13...c6 as his main move, continuing 14.Nc3 Bc5 15.O-O Re8 (15...Rf8 16.Nxe4!) and White is better after 16.b4 or 16.d4 correction: 16.b3 or 16.d4. But we regard Black's early c6 as suboptimal.
	« Last Edit: 08/02/11 at 17:23:58 by Markovich »
	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #146 - 08/01/11 at 09:38:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	What did Sokolov prescribe again? Moreover I would like some positional explanation why 14...Rf8 is met one way and 14...Re8 another.
	« Last Edit: 08/02/11 at 15:48:43 by Markovich »
	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #145 - 08/01/11 at 01:32:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 07/31/11 at 22:31:56: Download game in pgn format As I am recovering from a serious flu I can't guarantee at all that I have included everything relevant, so to everybody: do a check, please. Also for this reason I will include the 5...Nf6 stuff later. But I do have a question. What exactly is the difference (in the 11...Kd8 line) between 14...Re8 and 14...Rf8 lines? Can't they met with the same plan, ie 15.Nc3 and 16.b4 or evt. 16.b3 ? Sure pawn d2 is weak, but if White returns it while exchanging some heavy pieces he/she is still a pawn up. Or, more likely, do my brains not work properly yet? 14...Rf8 is met by 15.Nc3 Qf5 16.b4. 14...Re8 is met by 15.a4 Ra6 16.b4. 14...c6 is met as per Sokolov.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #144 - 07/31/11 at 22:31:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Download game in pgn format As I am recovering from a serious flu I can't guarantee at all that I have included everything relevant, so to everybody: do a check, please. Also for this reason I will include the 5...Nf6 stuff later. But I do have a question. What exactly is the difference (in the 11...Kd8 line) between 14...Re8 and 14...Rf8 lines? Can't they met with the same plan, ie 15.Nc3 and 16.b4 or evt. 16.b3 ? Sure pawn d2 is weak, but if White returns it while exchanging some heavy pieces he/she is still a pawn up. Or, more likely, do my brains not work properly yet?

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
	IP Logged

fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #143 - 07/31/11 at 21:37:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/31/11 at 12:38:14: Looking at the recent postings in this thread, some serious chess analysis business seems to be going on ! For me and probably many other "part-time-visitors" to this thread, it would be very helpful to have the initial moves at the beginning of each posting. ...inserting the initial moves would - in my view - greatly reduce the danger of leading to a "private discussion" of three, four, five contributors, leaving everybody else practically out. Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/31/11 at 20:39:54: So I agree that 13.Qe2 should be the main line (+/-), and 13.Qh3 += is almost as strong and a simple alternative. I am sorry I haven't looked at any lines and provided no analysis, but I just came back from a short vacation. I agree with the above.


	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #142 - 07/31/11 at 21:18:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well then, it only remains for our friend MNb to consolidate all this in his notes, and we're back onto 5...Nf6. Or are we finished there as well?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #141 - 07/31/11 at 20:39:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/31/11 at 15:23:21: After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8! 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 Bc5 14.0-0 Rf8, I wonder if 15.d4, as played in the games Vogt - Senarega and Fedorov - Morgado, is so strong; my computer doesn't like it at all. What about 15.Nc3 (threatening the third black pawn and, more importantly, freeing b1 for the rook) and after 15...Qf5 the sacrifice 16.b4 Bxb4 17.Rb1 Bxc3 18.dxc3? Indeed, these 14...Rf8 corr. games are not convincing. 15.Nc3! Qf5 16.b4! (Zwischenzugzwang) looks strong. If 16...Bxb4 17.Rb1 Bd6, White has 18.Rb5 Qg6 19.h4!, and if 17...Bc5 18.Rxb7 Bb6, the sacrifice 19.Rxb6 cxb6 20.Nb5 gives White a +1.20 position with fine winning chances. Ivan Sokolov's 14...Re8 may be slightly more precise, after 15.Nc3 (16.b4 Bxb4 17.Rb1 Rb6 +0.60) 15...Ra6 Black's Re8 is more useful than the Rf8. I had already mentioned the idea 15.a4 intending 15...Ng4? 17.b4!. Now I think that even the more logical 15...Ra6 runs into problems after 16.b4! Bxb4 17.Ba3 +0.88, when Black's strongest piece Bb4 is exchanged or pushed aside to the square a5. So I agree that 13.Qe2 should be the main line (+/-), and 13.Qh3 += is almost as strong and a simple alternative.


	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #140 - 07/31/11 at 18:43:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Both these ideas look pretty strong to me. I see that in Filipenko - Fedoseev, Izhevsk 2006, one of the rare OTB games in this line, White won after 13.Qh3 Qd3 14.Qxd3 exd3 15.h4. But 13...Qxh3 must be critical, when Stefan's analysis looks good (indeed it looks at least +=). I have to admit I like this idea, which denies Black any sort of fun, though possibly at the cost of a more certain White win. 13.Qe2 preserves maximal winning chances at the cost of giving Black at least some practical chances of his own. I find it a little strange that in 8 or 10 corr games that I have, White didn't do very well (confirmed in Stefan's data). I think this is explained by the circumstance that essentially all of these games are from the pre-engine era, at least in my data. Precise corr defense is much easier, backed up by an engine. So after 13.Qe2 Bc5 14.O-O Rf8 15.Nc3 Qf5 (15...Qd3 16.Qxd3 exd3 17.b3 and White must be fine) 16.b4! does indeed seem strong. We should note that Black doesn't have to take the pawn, he can play 16...Bd6 17.h3 or 16...Bd4,17.Bb2 but even so White's case seems hopeful. OTB I expect I would play 13.Qh3 every time, dousing Black's winning chances. Maybe we should mention both lines, at least if we can't find a way to demonstrate Black's comp after 15.Nc3.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

Zwischenzugzwang

Senior Member

Offline

I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male

Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #139 - 07/31/11 at 15:23:21

Post Tools

Print Post

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8! 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 Bc5 14.0-0 Rf8, I wonder if 15.d4, as played in the games Vogt - Senarega and Fedorov - Morgado, is so strong; my computer doesn't like it at all. What about 15.Nc3 (threatening the third black pawn and, more importantly, freeing b1 for the rook) and after 15...Qf5 the sacrifice 16.b4 Bxb4 17.Rb1 Bxc3 18.dxc3?

White has horrible doubled pawns, but the bishop is free, the b-file is half-opened (where is the black king going to rest?) and White still has a material advantage.

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?

IP Logged

Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #138 - 07/31/11 at 15:12:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	So we are satisfied with a significant edge in the ending, some winning chances with almost no risk of losing? In that case 13.Qh3!? comes into consideration. (Actually, I now almost believe that White has nothing better - in all lines after 12.Qa5 or 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 or 13.Qg5 Black seems to have sufficient compensation.) The only game in the database with 13.Qh3 stems from a thematic tournament. The annotations are mine: Download game in pgn format


	IP Logged

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #137 - 07/31/11 at 14:40:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/31/11 at 01:01:39: [1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 (Jaenisch didn't recommend it, but still: "Jaenisch Gambit", sometimes called "Schliemann Gambit", for reasons nobody understands) 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8!] Markovich wrote on 07/30/11 at 18:14:12: Well, looking back at 12.Qa5 Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4 Qg4, I wonder if simply 16.Nxd6+ is good. 16...Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qxg2 18.Rf1. If 18...Nf6 19.Qc7 Kg6 20.b3!. But 18...looks more challenging, so I'm not sure. Critical seems 18...Nf6 19.Qc7+ (19.Qg3 Qxg3 20.fxg3 h5) 19...Ke6! 20.Qxb7 Rhc8 21.b3 Nd7! = or 21.Qb3 Qxh2 22.a4 Ng4 =. Hmm. 21.Qb3! looks right, intending 21...Ng4 22.Qg3. After your 21...Qxh2, which seems best, perhaps White should try 22.Qe3. I remain unsure of the evaluation. On second thought, 22.Qe3 Rd8 looks fine for Black.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
	IP Logged

Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Spanish repertoire Reply #136 - 07/31/11 at 13:31:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dear Stefan, that's nice! And even a short summary, that's more than I expected Thank you!

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
	IP Logged