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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 375020 times)
MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #165 - 08/03/11 at 23:14:12
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MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 16:48:34:
But Markovich, is it practical to discuss 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 if 5.o-o just transposes to 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.c3 ?


Markovich wrote on 08/03/11 at 17:04:49:
It doesn't just transpose because Black has that big, fat 5...Nd4, which I have already mentioned in two posts.  Show me += after that and I'll be happy to go with 5.0-0.

Is 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.o-o Nd4 6.cxd4! +- good enough for you?

But yes, if it's gonna be 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.Nxe5 you are right.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #164 - 08/03/11 at 18:44:12
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Markovich wrote on 08/03/11 at 16:42:40:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 14:12:20:
We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5. - I am not sure whether White has much, for example, after 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!? (not in Sokolov) 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6, about =. And 6...Ne4 7.0-0 d5 should be solid enough, but 7...dxc3?! isn't easy to refute either: 8.Qc2! (8.Qd5 by Sokolov seems to be wrong and is only equal after 8...Bxf2+ 9.Kh1 Be3!) when White can take back on f2 with the Queen (+=).


Interesting after 8.Qd5 Bxf2+ is 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10.Nxc3.  This must have been the subject of a theoretical discussion somewhere, sometime, but I can't find anything on it.  But after 10...Ng4 11.Bg5 Ne7 (11...f6 fails) 12.Qe4 c6 13.Qxg4 d5 14.Qd4 (14.Qh4 cxb5 seems to favor Black) 14...Qb6, I can find no advantage for White.  I mention this in case anyone else can find anything promising in it.  

A related line also worth looking at is 10.Kxf2 instead of 10.Nxc3.  My data base has a CXEB (Brazilian cc league) game where White managed to win after 10...cxb2 11.Bxb2, notwithstanding that Black has a rook and three pawns versus two minor pieces and also has no weaknesses.  He's way behind in activity of course, but I wonder if White's game can be trusted.

We don't have to look at 7...dxc3, because 8.Qc2 is a good reply. By the way, Sokolov himself mentions 7...a6 8.Ba4 dxc3 9.Qc2!?. Maybe his 7...a6 is good, but I like 7...d5 (see my reply # 157). 
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #163 - 08/03/11 at 18:39:08
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Markovich wrote on 08/03/11 at 17:01:27:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 14:12:20:
We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.

Here I strongly recommend 5.Nxe5.

3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe4 6.Qe2 Nxe5 7.d4 Qe7 8.dxc5 Nxc5 is the line recommended by Sokolov (2009), but there is a good alternative in 8...Ng6!, keeping the Ne4 one move longer on e4. If 9.Nc3 Nxc3 10.Qxe7+ Nxe7 11.bxc3 b6 12.Re1 Kd8 13.Ba3 bxc5 14.Bxc5 d6 15.Rad1 Rb8 16.Ba4 Be6 17.f3 Kc8 18.Bd4 Nf5 19.Bf2 Rb2 20.a3 h5 looks pretty equal to me. In a game Vasiukov - Litvinov, Moscow 1963, White played 9.Be3 0-0 10.Qh5 instead, with a fast draw.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #162 - 08/03/11 at 18:17:10
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Markovich wrote on 08/03/11 at 17:04:49:
MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 16:48:34:
But Markovich, is it practical to discuss 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 if 5.o-o just transposes to 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.c3 ?


It doesn't just transpose because Black has that big, fat 5...Nd4, which I have already mentioned in two posts.  Show me += after that and I'll be happy to go with 5.0-0.

That seems to be a misunderstanding. MNb suggests to focus on 3....Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0 (instead of investing work on 5.d4, too), which we'll need anyway. That's not the same as suggesting 4.0-0 when you fear 4...Nd4.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #161 - 08/03/11 at 17:04:49
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MNb wrote on 08/03/11 at 16:48:34:
But Markovich, is it practical to discuss 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 if 5.o-o just transposes to 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.c3 ?


It doesn't just transpose because Black has that big, fat 5...Nd4, which I have already mentioned in two posts.  Show me += after that and I'll be happy to go with 5.0-0.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #160 - 08/03/11 at 17:01:27
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 14:12:20:
We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5.


Here I strongly recommend 5.Nxe5.

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I am not sure whether White has much, for example, after 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!? (not in Sokolov) 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6, about =.


I can't understand why 7.cxd4, instead of 7.0-0, isn't seen more in practice.  I my db it occurs in three very low-level games, worthless as indications of its merit.  But after 7...Bb4+ 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.0-0 White looks pretty good to me.




  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #159 - 08/03/11 at 16:48:34
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But Markovich, is it practical to discuss 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 if 5.o-o just transposes to 3...Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.c3 ?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #158 - 08/03/11 at 16:42:40
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/11 at 14:12:20:
We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5. - I am not sure whether White has much, for example, after 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!? (not in Sokolov) 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6, about =. And 6...Ne4 7.0-0 d5 should be solid enough, but 7...dxc3?! isn't easy to refute either: 8.Qc2! (8.Qd5 by Sokolov seems to be wrong and is only equal after 8...Bxf2+ 9.Kh1 Be3!) when White can take back on f2 with the Queen (+=).


Interesting after 8.Qd5 Bxf2+ is 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10.Nxc3.  This must have been the subject of a theoretical discussion somewhere, sometime, but I can't find anything on it.  But after 10...Ng4 11.Bg5 Ne7 (11...f6 fails) 12.Qe4 c6 13.Qxg4 d5 14.Qd4 (14.Qh4 cxb5 seems to favor Black) 14...Qb6, I can find no advantage for White.  I mention this in case anyone else can find anything promising in it.   

A related line also worth looking at is 10.Kxf2 instead of 10.Nxc3.  My data base has a CXEB (Brazilian cc league) game where White managed to win after 10...cxb2 11.Bxb2, notwithstanding that Black has a rook and three pawns versus two minor pieces and also has no weaknesses.  He's way behind in activity of course, but I wonder if White's game can be trusted.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #157 - 08/03/11 at 14:12:20
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We'll also have to do with 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5, when White's choices are more limited. - Edit: Khalifman's (2003) suggested repertoire was 4.c3 Nf6 5.0-0, transposing to 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5. - I am not sure whether White has much, for example, after 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Nd5!? (not in Sokolov) 7.0-0 Be7 8.cxd4 d6 9.Nc3 Be6, about =. And 6...Ne4 7.0-0 d5 should be solid enough, but 7...dxc3?! isn't easy to refute either: 8.Qc2! (8.Qd5 by Sokolov seems to be wrong and is only equal after 8...Bxf2+ 9.Kh1 Be3!) when White can take back on f2 with the Queen (+=). 

PS. 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Ne4 7.0-0 d5 (a6!? Sokolov) 8.exd6 0-0 9.dxc7 Qxc7! (maybe better than Sokolov's main line 9...Qf6) 10.cxd4 Nxd4 (S. mentions only Bd6) 11.Nxd4 Qb6. This has been played in 36 games, Black scored 69%. Best seems 12.Qc2 Nxf2 13.Rxf2 Bxd4 14.Bf1 =.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #156 - 08/03/11 at 13:17:56
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fling wrote on 08/03/11 at 07:32:39:
Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22:
Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5?  My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight.  I think that 4.c3 is more challenging.  Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but  I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3.  

If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best.  After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2.

If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.


I know we are looking for critical answers, and I know that you consider 4.c3 pretty critical in the Bird, but what about transposing to the regular main line after 1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.O-O Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.d3 etc?

This actually seems like a practical approach. Even though the lines in the Bird are more complicated than I thought, they are considered +=. In this case, White only needs to learn how to answer other replies than 4 ...Nd4


5.Nxd4 isn't met by 5...exd4 but by 5...Bxd4, after which White's advantage is rather slight, I think. I don't recall having said anything about the Bird, but I do think that since 4.c3 is the most critical and apparently the most promising against 3...Bc5, that is what we should reccommend. 







  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #155 - 08/03/11 at 07:32:39
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Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22:
Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5?  My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight.  I think that 4.c3 is more challenging.  Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but  I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3.  

If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best.  After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2.

If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.


I know we are looking for critical answers, and I know that you consider 4.c3 pretty critical in the Bird, but what about transposing to the regular main line after 1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.O-O Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.d3 etc?

This actually seems like a practical approach. Even though the lines in the Bird are more complicated than I thought, they are considered +=. In this case, White only needs to learn how to answer other replies than 4 ...Nd4
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #154 - 08/02/11 at 21:01:06
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Ouch, my analysis of 9.Ke2 was flawed, with old software. It seems (to my own surprise) that I had only had a new look on 9.Kd1 based on Sokolov, but didn't study 9.Ke2 again. - I'll check alternatives. 9.Ke2 now looks pretty good for White. 

Edit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 (maybe I'll convert to 4...f5 later...) 5.d4 Bb6 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe4 8.Qg4 Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 Qh4 10.Qxg7 Rf8. Critical seems 11.Bh6 (11.Nd2 Nxd2, about =) 11...Bc5 12.Nd2 ("with some white advantage", Sokolov) 12...Qf2+ (12...c6? 13.g3 +-; 12...Nf2?! 13.b4 Ng4) 13.Kd1 Nxd2 14.Bxd2 c6 15.Bc4 (or 15.Bd3) Qh4 16.Bd3 d5 17.exd6 Bxd6 18.Kc2 Be6 19.g3 Qa4+ 20.b3 Qa3 (Qa5) 21.Bg5 Kd7 22.Bf6 +=. Can Black improve this line?
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 14:09:45 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #153 - 08/02/11 at 18:09:28
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/11 at 17:57:17:
Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 17:29:49:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/11 at 16:25:45:
Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22:
Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5?  My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight.  I think that 4.c3 is more challenging.  Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but  I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3.  

If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best.  After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2.

If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.

4...Nf6 5.d4 Bb6 is the best reply in my opinion.


So, what's your improvement on 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe6 8.Qg4 Bxf2+ 9.Kd1, as analyzed by Sokolov on p. 215?  I notice he fails to consider 9...c6, is that your idea?

Yes, 10.Qxg7 Rf8 11.Bd3 d5.


I modified my last reply to include some remarks on 9.Ke2; please see.

And further in that vein, 9.Ke2 Qh4 10.Qxg7 Rf8 11.Nd2 (instead of 11.Bh6) 11...Bc5 12.Nf3 Qh5 it seems that 13.Bh6 as played in Stolarczuk - Paprocki, Torun 2003 (athough this was not a very high-level game) is an improvement on 13.Rhe1 b6! as played in Gilezetdinov - Tolush, corr 1971, cited by Sokolov.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #152 - 08/02/11 at 17:57:17
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Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 17:29:49:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/11 at 16:25:45:
Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22:
Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5?  My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight.  I think that 4.c3 is more challenging.  Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but  I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3.  

If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best.  After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2.

If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.

4...Nf6 5.d4 Bb6 is the best reply in my opinion.


So, what's your improvement on 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe6 8.Qg4 Bxf2+ 9.Kd1, as analyzed by Sokolov on p. 215?  I notice he fails to consider 9...c6, is that your idea?

Yes, 10.Qxg7 Rf8 11.Bd3 d5.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #151 - 08/02/11 at 17:29:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/11 at 16:25:45:
Markovich wrote on 08/02/11 at 15:36:22:
Can we perhaps take a peek at 3...Bc5?  My thinking is that 4.O-O isn't quite good enough because of 4...Nd4, where White's eventual advantage seems pretty slight.  I think that 4.c3 is more challenging.  Stefan said "3...Bc5 =", which seems a little funny to me, but  I'd like to learn how he plans to meet 4.c3.  

If 4...f5 I think that 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Ne5 Bd6 is best.  After that I'm not sure, but I'm attracted to the simple 8.0-0 Nf6 (8...Qh4!?) 9.Nd2.

If 4...Nf6 I maintain that 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.O-O is += or better.

4...Nf6 5.d4 Bb6 is the best reply in my opinion.


So, what's your improvement on 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe6 8.Qg4 Bxf2+ 9.Kd1, as analyzed by Sokolov on p. 215?  I notice he fails to consider 9...c6, is that your idea?

Leaving aside Sokolov's preferred 9.Kd1, I wonder if 9.Ke2 Qh4 10.Qxg7 Rf8 11.Bh6 Bc5 12.Nd2 isn't quite nice for Black.  Sokolov says, "with some White advantage," but White's advantage is hardly trivial, it seems to me.
  
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