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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 374981 times)
Fllg
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #405 - 07/28/12 at 14:52:30
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Even if the end position of your line is drawn with best play it´s certainly not attractive to play.

Perhaps 17.f3 Bh3 is worth a further look?

Ametanoitos wrote on 07/28/12 at 12:13:29:

Shall we go now to another variation? (which i may be able to spell it correctly this time?)  Grin


Before that we have to find something convincing against 16... Qxf1+ and 16... Qh6 as well.  Smiley

Then there are also rarer moves like 11... Bb7 instead of  the main move 11... c6 which also belongs to the Marshall Attack and so on and so on...  Cheesy
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #404 - 07/28/12 at 12:13:29
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OK, you force me to take out the "big gun"! The last variation i showed was the one that made me stay away from the Marshall Gambit when i studied it from Brunello's and Vigorito's books. The one i'll present you now is what i believe to be a serious try for the advantage for White. Gustafsson misses a move order trick, so don't go to him for help. 



I know, i know....White is better but does he have realistic winning chances? I think yes, he does. 

Shall we go now to another variation? (which i may be able to spell it correctly this time?)  Grin

PS
@Tony, Stefan: Thank you for saving my time by showing a good way against this Steiner line!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #403 - 07/28/12 at 06:27:22
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TonyRo wrote on 07/27/12 at 13:12:16:
As far as refuting the Steiner goes, I propose we base it off of Nakamura's convincing win over Short in London 2010, utilizing the under-promoted 11.g3. The only database I have access to at work has White scoring 100% after 11.g3 in a small number of games. The Naka game is below: [...]

I agree that this is good for White. Silly from that Bücker guy not to consider the move order 11.g3, which transposes to the old main line 11.d4, but avoids 11.d4 fxg2!. So I admit that the Steiner won't be the problem. 

Regarding "Marshal", it is known that Frank Marshall himself had serious issues with orthography...
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #402 - 07/28/12 at 00:27:41
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That's right. The whole question is how to win as White,which appears to be difficult with expert defense.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #401 - 07/28/12 at 00:02:05
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Gustafsson gives both 20.Nf1 Bf5 21.Qd2 Bh3! and 20.Qf1 Bh3! as satisfactory for Black.

Asking for winning chances might be a bit too much. It´s not new that the Marshall is mainly a drawing weapon on higher levels and there are some lines where Black invites a repetition.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #400 - 07/27/12 at 21:18:16
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OK, i have a problem with the MG. I was corrected by Markovic not long ago again!  Smiley

For starters, look at this line that i found while reading Vigorito's great "Understanding the Marschall Attack". I think that this is the traditional Main Line, right? I'd never like to be in Black's shoes. Where are his winning chances? Objectively it must be a draw, but i assure you it is not an easy one. Some time ago i played lots of training games in this line with Black and i drew about 65-60% and lost 35-40% of those games. We can look at Black's modern alternatives if you have nothing to add here.



Also 20.Qf1 seems promising to me. I really cannot decide which move is more unpleasant for Black
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #399 - 07/27/12 at 17:38:39
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/27/12 at 16:56:53:
As an American, I grant Ametanoitos special dispensation to spell it anyway he wants.


Agree - if he's taking time out of his busy schedule to share some ideas, then he call me 'Tony Rototiller" as well.

Grin
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #398 - 07/27/12 at 16:56:53
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As an American, I grant Ametanoitos special dispensation to spell it anyway he wants.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #397 - 07/27/12 at 13:30:05
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/27/12 at 13:05:02:
Everybody agrees to start a Marshal discussion?

Only if we agree that the spelling is Marshall.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #396 - 07/27/12 at 13:12:16
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Let's do it. 

As far as refuting the Steiner goes, I propose we base it off of Nakamura's convincing win over Short in London 2010, utilizing the under-promoted 11.g3. The only database I have access to at work has White scoring 100% after 11.g3 in a small number of games. The Naka game is below:



Black can also try 13...Qd6, though I'd be confident handling White after 14.Qd3 Qxc6 15.Nd2, when Black can't avoid losing the f3-pawn, with what looks to be a much improved version of normal Marshall attacks to me - the structure is the same, but Black has way less pressure. My computer thinks 15...Bf8 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Bd5 Rad8 18.Bxf3 Rxe1+ 19.Rxe1 Be6 20.Qe3 is best play, but this looks strictly better for White to me, somewhere between += and ± to me.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #395 - 07/27/12 at 13:05:02
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I have an interesting idea to share with you against the Marshal when i find my files (soon....). I'll also see what i can do for the Steiner line. 

Everybody agrees to start a Marshal discussion?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #394 - 07/27/12 at 12:20:43
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I had written for ChessCafe on the Steiner Variation of the Marshall Attack, where Black sacrifices a second pawn and did well. I am not aware that somebody had refuted it. These two pdf documents are named kaiss11.pdf and kaiss12.pdf and can easily be found on the web. It would be interesting for me if somebody could find a plus for White.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #393 - 07/27/12 at 11:37:21
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Bibs wrote on 07/27/12 at 00:26:20:
ghenghisclown wrote on 07/26/12 at 23:31:10:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/12 at 22:06:41:

In my view all these main systems are far out of reach of this Forum.


No, they're not. If we can do gazillions of pages on gambits that nobody plays in real life, there's room for anything.


Yes, absolutely agree. 
Not really an efficient use of human capital to be spending so much time deciding whether certain variations are either 'inadvisable' or 'rubbish'. 
Focus, focus.


Yes, I'd be more interested if we were trying to find something against the Marshall, even if it turned out to be fruitless and we had to move on to an Anti-Marshall.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #392 - 07/27/12 at 09:58:34
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Bibs wrote on 07/27/12 at 00:26:20:
ghenghisclown wrote on 07/26/12 at 23:31:10:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/12 at 22:06:41:

In my view all these main systems are far out of reach of this Forum.


No, they're not. If we can do gazillions of pages on gambits that nobody plays in real life, there's room for anything.


Yes, absolutely agree. 
Not really an efficient use of human capital to be spending so much time deciding whether certain variations are either 'inadvisable' or 'rubbish'. 
Focus, focus.

My main point was that there is nobody here to do the work on the Spanish main lines. It is less surprising that people help to study 3...f5 or 3...Bc5, perhaps they play it with Black. But most amateurs (and their opponents!) avoid the main lines. As I said, my personal focus is on 4...Nf6 5.Bxc6 which gives White a plus. I don't think that other moves are better. But if you, Bibs, step forward to do the heavy-lifting, it is of course highly welcome, and I won't get in the way.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #391 - 07/27/12 at 07:40:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/12 at 22:06:41:
Ametanoitos wrote on 07/26/12 at 21:48:10:
I think that is almost all the major main lines Black faces problems today, so it is not difficult to form a practical yet ambitious reperoire. In my opinion, we should first try to propose interesting things in the main lines, starting from the most popular defences and then move on to the side-lines.

Black has problems in the Marshall Gambit? I didn't think so.


Problem solved - let's start with the Marshall.
  
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