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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 375004 times)
MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #105 - 07/27/11 at 11:20:50
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I like 17.d4 exd3 18.Be3. Let's keep it.

After 11...Kd8 White perhaps can follow the same path as after 11...g6 ? I mean 11...Kd8 12.Qa5 (threatens something) Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4. Of course Rh8 is not en prise anymore, but 15...Qe7 looks quite ugly now. In the only game I found Black tried 15...Qg4 16.Qb6 Qxg2 17.Rf1 Nf6 18.Qxb7+ Be7 19.Nd6+ Ke6 20.Nf5+ Kxf5 21.Qxe7 Rhe8 22.Qd6 Qf3 and won, Rohde-Ritter, corr 1992. But White should be fine here, don't you think?

« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 18:36:37 by MNb »  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #104 - 07/27/11 at 11:13:10
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MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 10:29:29:
fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 06:32:44:
What about 14 ...c6, with the idea of preserving the bishop and putting it on g7? White can't play like in the main line.

Black already has played 13...c6.


Hm, I made a mistake, and somehow looked at b3 before ...c6 was played.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #103 - 07/27/11 at 10:53:37
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MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 10:29:29:
fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 07:04:50:
It looks good for White, especially after 18. f3 I think., getting rid of the pawn on f3, or opening up the f-file.

I'm afraind not. After 18...Rd8 19.Nxe4 Nb3 or 19.fxe4+ Ke6 Black gets tons of counterplay.

Agreed. By the way, this was the last move in Sokolov's 2009 book: " ...18.f3 is better for White".

Perhaps 17.d4 is an improvement (upon 17.0-0), e.g. 17...exd3 18.Be3 +/-.

MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 10:29:29:
[14...Qe7] is the usual move. After 15.Qxh8 Nf6 16.b3 (Keres) White is winning: 16...Rd8 17.Bb2 Bg7 18.Ba3 Boll-Grevlund, 1989 or 16...Re8 17.Ba3 Qd7 18.Bxf8 Rxf8 19.Qxf8+ Kxf8 20.Nc3 Balogh-Schardtner, corr 1963. There are several more examples of 14...Qe7 15.Qxh8. White wins most of them. Really, if the consensus is that White is better in my line after 14...Nf6 then we are done with 7...Qd6 too; 14...Rd8 15.Qxd7+ Rxd7 16.Nc3 Nf6 17.b3 is also close to winning.

Btw, 14...Qe7! is Sokolov's main line: "Trying to keep things messy. Other moves do not suffice either." 

In my opinion Black should play 11...Kd8 (instead of g6), e.g. 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 Bc5 14.0.0 Re8 15.Nc3 Ra6 +=. There is some compensation for the two (!) pawns. Maybe not enough, but the chances are better than after 11...g6. 

Edit: Black scores 50% (in 32 games) with 11...Kd8 and even 75% (6 games) with 13...Bc5. Surprisingly, Sokolov (who enters this position in the different move order 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bxd7+ Qxd7 ...) considers only 13...c6 (with insufficient comp.), which looks illogical.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #102 - 07/27/11 at 10:29:29
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fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 06:32:44:
What about 14 ...c6, with the idea of preserving the bishop and putting it on g7? White can't play like in the main line.

Black already has played 13...c6.

fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 07:04:50:
It looks good for White, especially after 18. f3 I think., getting rid of the pawn on f3, or opening up the f-file.

I'm afraid not. After 18...Rd8 19.Nxe4 Nb3 or 19.fxe4+ Ke6 Black gets tons of counterplay.

fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 07:04:50:
But instead of 14. ...Nf6, Black can play 14 ...Qe7.

That's the usual move. After 15.Qxh8 Nf6 16.b3 (Keres) White is winning: 16...Rd8 17.Bb2 Bg7 18.Ba3 Boll-Grevlund, 1989 or 16...Re8 17.Ba3 Qd7 18.Bxf8 Rxf8 19.Qxf8+ Kxf8 20.Nc3 Balogh-Schardtner, corr 1963. There are several more examples of 14...Qe7 15.Qxh8. White wins most of them. Really, if the consensus is that White is better in my line after 14...Nf6 then we are done with 7...Qd6 too; 14...Rd8 15.Qxd7+ Rxd7 16.Nc3 Nf6 17.b3 is also close to winning.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #101 - 07/27/11 at 09:50:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 09:33:35:


@fling: Yes. My Groteske Schacheröffnungen had a chapter on Bird's original concept: Nd4 [Nxd4] exd4, c6, d5 [exd5] cxd5 [Bb5+] Kf8! followed by a5 and h5-h4, which I liked very much. This experience was one of my main motivations to study 3...a5 4.0-0 Nd4.



Maybe you can think about 2nd edition of this book ?  Smiley
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #100 - 07/27/11 at 09:33:35
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Göran wrote on 07/27/11 at 08:51:21:
Please find the first version of 3..a5.

fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 06:29:05:
Actually, I have started looking at the Bird already (because I played against it Monday night), and ...a5 is a very interesting try in some of the lines there.

@Hacker: Excellent survey - you could straightaway change jobs and work for the editorial team of the NIC Yearbook. You only forgot "Use with caution - may hurt prejudices". 

@fling: Yes. My Groteske Schacheröffnungen had a chapter on Bird's original concept: Nd4 [Nxd4] exd4, c6, d5 [exd5] cxd5 [Bb5+] Kf8! followed by a5 and h5-h4, which I liked very much. This experience was one of my main motivations to study 3...a5 4.0-0 Nd4.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #99 - 07/27/11 at 08:51:21
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Please find the first version of 3..a5.
I have had some problem vith the viewer so I up load the .pgn file only.

Will make some more tries with the viewer later today. Will also add some more engine results in the file later today.

Any comments are very welcomed and I will change accordingly.

  
Ruy_Lopez_3___a5_ver_10.pgn ( 2 KB | Downloads )
What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #98 - 07/27/11 at 07:04:50
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Markovich wrote on 07/26/11 at 21:26:08:
MNb wrote on 07/26/11 at 20:39:49:




punter wrote on 07/27/11 at 04:07:12:
Imo the line with 14.Qd4 is perfect and white has pleasant edge. Black definitely wouldn't go for this willingly.


It looks good for White, especially after 18. f3 I think., getting rid of the pawn on f3, or opening up the f-file.

But instead of 14. ...Nf6, Black can play 14 ...Qe7. If I were a pawn down, I'd like to keep my queen.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #97 - 07/27/11 at 06:32:44
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MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 02:33:11:
OK then. The line I gave with 14.Qd4 still doesn't feel good. So I did a database research and found a game Quesada Perez-Gomes, Havana 2007. It went 14.b3 Rd8 15.Qf4+ Nf6 16.Bb2 Bg7 (Be7 is the same) 17.Bxf6 Bxf6 18.Nc3 and White went on to beat a higher rated opponent. I like the idea of exchanging the weakest piece. Is this an improvement?


What about 14 ...c6, with the idea of preserving the bishop and putting it on g7? White can't play like in the main line.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #96 - 07/27/11 at 06:29:05
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/26/11 at 21:57:05:
Markovich, it was clear from the beginning that this project can only work under strict guidance. Much, maybe all of the 3...a5 stuff is obsolete; you can cut or delete it, just as you wish. - You'll remember that I had a similar problem with the Kaissiber competition; we solved it by splitting it into the main thread and the chaotic chat thread. - In the spirit of the present thread it seems best to debate one line after another, and once a line has been pgn-finalized, the debate itself might just be deleted. 

A while ago you asked me what I thought was best against 3...a5, I gave my main line (see reply #44). Now you are asking me again. Put a += behind it, if you want.


Actually, I have started looking at the Bird already (because I played against it Monday night), and ...a5 is a very interesting try in some of the lines there. However, that could be another thread, I agree.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #95 - 07/27/11 at 04:07:12
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Imo the line with 14.Qd4 is perfect and white has pleasant edge. Black definitely wouldn't go for this willingly.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #94 - 07/27/11 at 02:33:11
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OK then. The line I gave with 14.Qd4 still doesn't feel good. So I did a database research and found a game Quesada Perez-Gomes, Havana 2007. It went 14.b3 Rd8 15.Qf4+ Nf6 16.Bb2 Bg7 (Be7 is the same) 17.Bxf6 Bxf6 18.Nc3 and White went on to beat a higher rated opponent. I like the idea of exchanging the weakest piece. Is this an improvement?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #93 - 07/26/11 at 22:50:33
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I think we'll lust lay 3...a5 aside for later consideration, then. The current order of business is the Jaenisch with 7...Qd5, after which we'lltake up 5...Nf6.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #92 - 07/26/11 at 21:57:05
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Markovich, it was clear from the beginning that this project can only work under strict guidance. Much, maybe all of the 3...a5 stuff is obsolete; you can cut or delete it, just as you wish. - You'll remember that I had a similar problem with the Kaissiber competition; we solved it by splitting it into the main thread and the chaotic chat thread. - In the spirit of the present thread it seems best to debate one line after another, and once a line has been pgn-finalized, the debate itself might just be deleted. 

A while ago you asked me what I thought was best against 3...a5, I gave my main line (see reply #44). Now you are asking me again. Put a += behind it, if you want.
  
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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #91 - 07/26/11 at 21:56:59
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Markovich wrote on 07/26/11 at 21:26:08:
It appears then that the next order of Jaenisch business is 5...Nf6.

I'd say 7...Qd5 first. Because of Radjabov I think 5...Nf6 is the main line of the Jänisch.
  
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