ChessPub Forum - Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4

brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #11 - 07/28/13 at 07:43:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Seth_Xoma wrote on 07/28/13 at 04:41:38: I would probably concentrate my efforts on making either 19.d5 or 24.g5 work. In the last case, 24...Nxg5 25.Ne5 followed by f4 and play on the g-file might provide enough play. 19.d5 cxd5 20.cxd5 and now Nc5 or Nf8 looks nice for black. I also want to point out that black with a reversed move-order (first b5 and then Rfd8) can avoid this if necessary. 24.g5 Bxg5 (much stronger than Nxg5) 25.Bxg5 Nxg5 26.Ne5 Rad8 27.f4 Nh7 and I don't see how white can build up further while the weak pawn on d4 is a real problem. Personally I've been looking to putting queen on c2 instead of e2 with some sharp stuff based on schemes with Ne2 followed up with g4 but I couldn't find any advantage for white as black counters with b4-b3.


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Seth_Xoma God Member Offline FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381) Posts: 558 Location: Lansing Joined: 11/05/04 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #10 - 07/28/13 at 04:41:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	I would probably concentrate my efforts on making either 19.d5 or 24.g5 work. In the last case, 24...Nxg5 25.Ne5 followed by f4 and play on the g-file might provide enough play.


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Seth_Xoma God Member Offline FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381) Posts: 558 Location: Lansing Joined: 11/05/04 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #9 - 07/27/13 at 23:53:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hope I can find time to have another look at this variation. Your line looks a little worrisome from White's perspective. I'd like to continue to make 17.Bc1 work. It's nice starting the game at move 17 with 1:38 on the clock to make 23 more moves. Download game in pgn format In the meantime, here's the latest game of mine in this line.


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tony37 God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Joined: 10/16/10	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #8 - 07/25/13 at 18:41:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	my idea is that 11.Bf4 is more or less refuted and white should play 11.Bd2, at least he's not worse there and he has some chances of an advantage


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #7 - 07/25/13 at 18:19:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Recently I also have been looking for new ideas from whites perspective in this line. I played in my most recent game 16.Rhe1 but didn't get any glimpse of an advantage against my 600 lower rated opponent (no youth player) and was only able to win with some serious help much later in the game. I remembered the published analysis here from Seth_Xoma so tried to figure out how critical these were. To my surprise a lot of ideas do work for white but in one line I am not able to make progress for white. Download game in pgn format I am still doubting what the best move-order is for black. Should Rfd8 be played before b5 or the other way around. Anyway I hope Seth_Xoma or somebody else can come up with some interesting idea to blow new life in this variation as I like to play it myself (in blitz I already did with success).


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Seth_Xoma God Member Offline FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381) Posts: 558 Location: Lansing Joined: 11/05/04 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #6 - 04/10/12 at 22:02:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had another chance to test my idea. This time my opponent was 2357 USCF...roughly 300 points higher than my last opponent. Download game in pgn format


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Seth_Xoma God Member Offline FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381) Posts: 558 Location: Lansing Joined: 11/05/04 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #5 - 10/16/11 at 03:41:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	Download game in pgn format


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #4 - 10/14/11 at 04:11:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	I like 17..a5. 18.Rhe1 Rfd8 transposes to Leko-Ivanchuk, Linares 1998. 18.Ne4 Rfd8 seems fine.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #3 - 10/13/11 at 21:39:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Looking at the position (without an engine) my idea would be to try to exchange some pieces, which could leave White with two weak pawns on h5 and d4, right? But also even without this, if White is attacking, piece exchanges will still do Black good. Thus, maybe skip ...c5 and either go for 18 ...Nxe4 19. Qxe4 Nf6 20. Q-anywhere Bf4, or why not 18. ...Bf4 immediately? I don't like c5 at all, actually, but maybe it is just me? Doesn't Black often go for ...b5 in these positions instead?


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Seth_Xoma

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Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas
Reply #2 - 10/13/11 at 21:10:07

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I had a look at your 17...Bd6, TN. Maybe White is not a whole lot better but he gets some chances to stir things up.

18.Ne4 (18.Ne2 Ng4!) and now:

I. 18...c5 19.Nxd6 Qxd6 20.Qe2 looks pleasant for White with g4 coming soon.

II. 18...Nxe4 19.Qxe4 c5 20.g4 Nf6 Otherwise g4-g5 next looks strong. And now two tries for White:

IIa. 21.Qe2 leads to equality probably. 21...Bf4! 22.dxc5 Bxc1 23.Rxc1 Nxg4 24.Rcg1 Qf4 and here's a cute line leading to a draw: 25.Rg2 Nf6 26. Rhg1 Qf5+ 27.Ka1 Nxh5 28.Nd4 Qxc5 29.Nb3 Qf5 30.Nd4 etc.

IIb. 21.Qc2 is more testing.

I looked at three moves for Black, the best is the last.

IIb1. 21...cxd4 22.g5 hxg5 23.h6 g6 24.Bxg5 with a great position for White.

IIb2. 21...Bf4 22.g5 hxg5 23.Nxg5 cxd4 24.h6 Bxc1 25.Qxc1 g6 26.Rxd4 looks nice for the first player.

IIb3. 21...Nxg4 is critical. 22.Rhg1 f5 23.d5! contesting the light-squares.

I'm not sure what Black's best is here, but it seems White is still in control of things. For example: 23...Qf7 24.dxe6 Qxe6 25.Nh4 Rad8 26.Rd5 Be5 27.Ng6 Rfe8 28.Re1 with a large advantage to White. A better defensive try might be 23...Bf4 24.Nh4 Bxc1 25.Rxc1 exd5 26.cxd5. This might still be nice for White though.

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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas Reply #1 - 10/13/11 at 00:31:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	17...Bd6 looks like a good alternative. My idea is to play ...c5 without allowing the response d5 ed5 Nf5, although ...e5 may also be okay.

	All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Seth_Xoma God Member Offline FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381) Posts: 558 Location: Lansing Joined: 11/05/04 Gender:	Classical Caro Kann 11.Bf4 - Search for New Ideas 10/12/11 at 21:11:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Download game in pgn format I had wondered about 17.Bc1 and came across the above game. Some ideas behind 17.Bc1 - Keeps options open, gets the bishop off the d-file, the bishop continues to eye h6, White asks Black what his plan is. Basically White cleans up his house before starting kingside action. Obviously, though, White is using up a lot of time with Kb1, Bc1 moves. Looking at this with a computer, it's funny that after 17...b5 18.c5 it gives Black a half-pawn advantage. That changes if you take the White side and make some obvious kingside attack moves (meeting ...Nd5 with Ne4 and g4). Probably both sides can be happy but I like White's chances in the ensuing complications. Black can also try 17...c5 but then 18.d5 exd5 19.Nf5 leads to some sharp stuff. Black can try to preface the above line with 17...Rad8 18.Qe2 c5 but then 19.d5 exd5 20.Nf5 (20.Qxe7 Rfe8 traps the queen) Bd6 21.cxd5 Nb6 22.N3h4 leads to some interesting lines. Black is sensitive on the g7 and h6 squares. Black's best is probably a central rook plan with 17...Rad8 18.Qe2 Rfe8! and then follow up with 19...c5. The only line I looked at was 19.Ne4 c5 20.Nxf6+ Bxf6 21.dxc5 Nxc5 22.g4 Rxd1 (22...Na4 23.Qc2 Qc6 24.g5 also leads to a weird mess) 23.Rxd1 Rd8 and the computer gives a slight preference for Black but it's probably just equal. Maybe White has to prefer retreating the queen to c2 with 18.Qc2. Anyone want to jump in?


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