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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld (Read 33170 times)
Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #21 - 01/16/12 at 02:01:43
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Are there any new developments in this line, or is the 10...a5 line still doing well for Black?
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #20 - 12/22/11 at 21:31:13
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A few minutes ago I lost a game against some IM who played 10. Re1 a5 11. Qe2 Be6 12. Nd2 a4 against me. I suppose this is another line that Black can play to avoid the aforementioned line.
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #19 - 12/22/11 at 21:16:17
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Thanks for looking at the games. They were played in the 3-minute pool on ICC at around 2300-2350 level (I think the highest on the list is currently 2592), and of course blitz is not the best examination of the lines, but I thought I would post the games since so many people play this line. Perhaps this line is the most promising for White--the one with the two bishops and knight against one knight and two bishops. I was hoping someone such as Avrukh would further investigate the recent developments in this entire complex, since trying to find a solution to this particular line is quite difficult without grandmaster advice.
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #18 - 12/22/11 at 04:11:50
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Gilchrist, Thank you for sharing your games. Of course, one should not take blitz games too seriously, but my brief thoughts are these  -

In the top game, you were significantly worse the entire game (until Black quickly collapsed at the end), and Black missed several easy wins. While I am not a big fan of 11. Qc2, I think that your problems started with 12. Nd2, which I do not understand, and either 12. Rd1 or 12. Ne4 are better.  12 Rd1 constrains Black, since White is "nearly" threatening e4 and/or d5. 12. Ne4 starts the knight on its path to c5.

The second game is different, and one can draw some interesting conclusions. After reaching the key position at move 19, I do not think that 20. Nf3 is a step in the best direction (since the knight belongs on c5). Still, it can't be bad, and it certainly does not hurt anything, and, strangely enough, that is the point. I think that with the 2 bishops and the slight pressure on Black's queenside pawns, White was slightly better the entire game. White has the luxury of quietly (and planlessly!) maneuvering, poking here and there (Rowson calls it the art of "being" rather than "doing"), and waiting for an opportunity to "do something". It is hard to play that way in blitz, but you did a pretty good job, and eventually Black simply lost a pawn in an attempt at activity (i.e. inappropriately trying to "do something".). Of course, you have to be watchful for the opportunities to do something,and you missed some chances that likely would have shortened the game. On either move 29 or 31, Rc4 seems to win, threatening both something like Nxc6 winning an important pawn and Qc2, winning a pawn.  I think that this is a good example of the surprising hidden fragility in Black's position.
  
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #17 - 12/21/11 at 21:03:07
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Thank you for providing the boards.
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #16 - 12/21/11 at 20:58:42
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #15 - 12/21/11 at 20:08:40
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Fixed.
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #14 - 12/21/11 at 19:38:56
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You don't even need to attach the pgn, just copy/paste the game from Chessbase and it will end up in standard text pgn format in your post. Anyone else can then just copy it back into Chessbase and the game will be normal. If you don't have Chessbase, use the /pgn command on ICC or something to generate the pgn.
  
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #13 - 12/21/11 at 16:26:35
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 12/21/11 at 05:24:31:
(I do not know how to construct a diagram)


Can't you save the game as PGN? If you can, please use the PGN-function when posting. Saves space, and obviously there will be no need for a diagram in that case!
  
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #12 - 12/21/11 at 16:05:42
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Please modify and tidy this last post, you can't take up a whole page with one post containing just one game! Huh
  
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #11 - 12/21/11 at 06:04:53
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oldguy wrote on 12/17/11 at 15:58:08:
Okay, this is likely my last post on this line. After

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nxd5 5.g3 Bg7 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.e3 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Re1 a5 11.Qe2 Be6 12.Nd2 Nb4 13.Rd1 c6 14.a3 N4d5 15. Nce4 Bf5 16. Nc5 e5! 17. dxe5 Qe7 18. Nd3 Bxd3 19. Qxd3 Qxe5

What should White’s next goal be? Two ideas come to mind:  b3 followed by Bb2 or Nd2-e4-c5. Even together they do not amount to a forced win, but the idea is to increase the pressure on Black.  The right way to start seems to be

20. Rb1

[This move seems important even if you wish to start with the second idea. Here is one possible (completely unforced) line

20. Ne4 Nf6 (preventing 21. Nc5) 21. Nxf6 Bxf6 22. Qb3. 

Now it seems White may be getting somewhere, pressuring the queenside, and hoping to play Bd2-c3 at some point. However, Black can exploit White's lack of development.

22…Rad8! 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Qxb6 Rd1+ 25. Bf1 Qd5 26. Qxb7 Qc4 27. Qc8+ Kh7 28. Qh3. 

White is not being mated, but he can barely move a piece, and Black, a piece down, cannot possibly lose unless he overreaches. It is hard for Black to make much progress, though, so the most likely outcome seems to be a draw. 
However, if White’s rook had been on b1, he could have avoided all this by playing 23. Bd2! with a winning position!]

Now, after 20 Rb1, 20 …a4 makes sense, and White can proceed with Ne4.  A sample line is

20 Rb1 a4 21. Ne4 Nd7 (this is not forced, but makes sense) 22. Bd2 Red8 23. Qc2 Qe7 (continuing to prevent Nc5)

and now White can even try 24. Nc3 with the idea of trading down to an endgame with Black having weak queenside pawns, all on light squares, and White having the strong bishop on g2. It’s not much, but it allows White to play on without fear of losing, and causes Black to work a bit more before earning his draw. 



With regards to this line, I just played yet another game in this line as White since everyone seems to be playing this against me:

 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Nf3 O-O 7. O-O Nb6 8.
Nc3 Nc6 9. e3 a5 10. Re1 Re8 11. Qe2 Be6 12. Nd2 Nb4 13. Rd1 c6 14. a3 N4d5
15. Nce4 Bf5 16. Nc5 e5 17. dxe5 Qe7 18. Nd3 Bxd3 19. Qxd3 Qxe5 20. Nf3 Qe7
21. Qc2 a4 22. Bd2 Nd7 23. Rac1 N7f6 24. Nd4 Ne4 25. Be1 h5 26. Rd3 Bf8 27.
Qb1 Nc5 28. Rdd1 Ne4 29. Qc2 Ra6 30. Qe2 Qf6 31. Rc2 h4 32. Qf3 hxg3 33.
hxg3 Qxf3 34. Bxf3 Rb6 35. Rdc1 Bg7 36. Kg2 Nd6 37. Rd1 Ne4 38. Rd3 Ndf6 39.
Ba5 Ra6 40. Bb4 Bf8 41. Be1 Nc5 42. Rd1 Ne6 43. Nxe6 Rxe6 44. Rd4 Bg7 45.
Rd8+ Re8 46. Rd4 Rea8 47. Rcd2 Bf8 48. Rc4 Rb6 49. Rdc2 Rb5 50. Bc3 Nd5 51.
Bd4 Nc7 52. R4c3 Rb3 53. Rxb3 axb3 54. Rc3 Nb5 55. Rxb3 Nxd4 56. exd4 Ra7
57. d5 Bd6 58. dxc6 bxc6 59. Bxc6 Rc7 60. Bd5 Kg7 61. Rf3 Be5 62. b4 Bb2 63.
a4 Ra7 64. b5 Bc1 65. Bc6 Re7 66. b6 Bd2 67. b7 Rxb7 68. Bxb7 Ba5 69. Bd5
Bc7 70. Rxf7+ Kh6 71. Rxc7 Kg5 72. Rc2 Kf6 73. Bb3 Ke5 74. a5 Kd6 75. a6 Ke5
76. a7 Kd6 77. a8=Q Ke7 78. Qa4 Kf6 79. Rc4 Kg7 80. Rb4 Kh6 81. Rb5 Kg7 82.
Qa6 Kh6 83. Rb6 Kg7 84. Rxg6+ Kh7 85. Qe6 Kh8 86. Qg8# {Black checkmated}
1-0
« Last Edit: 12/21/11 at 19:49:59 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #10 - 12/21/11 at 05:24:31
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I am encountering this line many times as White in online chess on ICC, and I continue to get equal or worse positions after 10. Re1 a5 11. Qe2 Be6. I tried 11. Qc2, but I still ended up with worse positions. 

One of my games from today (scorecard from ICC):

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Nf3 Nb6 7. Nc3 Nc6 8.
e3 O-O 9. O-O Re8 10. Re1 a5 11. Qc2 Be6 12. Nd2 Bf5 13. Nde4 e5 14. dxe5
Nxe5 15. Rd1 Qc8 16. Qe2 Bg4 17. f3 Bh3 18. Bd2 Bxg2 19. Kxg2 Nec4 20. Rab1
f5 21. Nc5 Bf8 22. Nd3 Qe6 23. Re1 Rad8 24. Bc1 Qd7 25. Nf4 Bc5 26. e4 c6
27. b3 Ne5 28. Bb2 Bd4 29. Rbd1 Qf7 30. Qc2 g5 31. Nd3 Ng6 32. exf5 Qxf5 33.
Ne4 g4 34. fxg4 Qxg4 35. Ndf2 Bxf2 36. Nf6+ Kf7 37. Nxg4 {Black resigns} 1-0
« Last Edit: 12/21/11 at 19:49:00 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #9 - 12/19/11 at 21:33:51
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oldguy wrote on 12/19/11 at 16:29:10:
Gilchrist, 

My thoughts on this line are complicated. I desperately would like to believe that somehow this is good for White. Why? Because I believe that the fianchetto variation of the King's Indian is practically a forced win for White! I say this half-jokingly of course, but Black's play is so difficult in these lines, and the counterplay so atypical for the King's Indian (where most players want to play ...e5, ...f5, ...f4,...g5 without thinking - which rarely works against the fianchetto), that players below master strength, and sometimes above, struggle against the pressure, and White can often get an effortless win. (The new book Wojo's Weapon Vol. 2 emphasizes this point, and it is consistent with my experience.)

My reluctance to play g3 against ...g6 is the result of my questions about the Grunfeld.

I am not sure that blitz is the best test.  My sense is that blitz places a higher priority on active play, and in this variation that may tip the scale to black. White's play is more subtle, and probably requires more thought. That said, I am beginning to understand this opening better, and feel more comfortable - and even doing better with it in blitz.  (However, I have been examining only one variation - fortunately the most common, and the one most often recommended in books for Black.  White is struggling in several fianchetto variations to prove something.  For example, I don't know how to address the line in Vass's question in this thread.)

Perhaps it worth noting that it is increasingly difficult for White to prove an edge in any variation of the Grunfeld! The Grunfeld is becoming a tough nut to crack.

Still, at the moment, in an important game, I will play g3 when Black commits to the king's indian (such as in lines with an early ...d6), but will probably play more classically after the usual order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6. Meanwhile, I will continue looking for an edge in the fianchetto lines of the Grunfeld.


Yes, but this line seems to succeed very well for Black in long games as well--I think it was Khanty Mansiysk 2010 when there were many games with this line. It seemed as if all attempts by White were responded with a convincing reply by Black. Perhaps alternatives to 10. Re1 need to be found, or there must be some more detailed analysis of some middlegames that arise after 10. Re1 a5 11. Qe2 Be6 12. Nd2 Nb4 13. Rd1 c6 14. a3 N4d5. I cannot remember which game it was, perhaps it was Bacrot-Robson where this line was played and White gained the advantage in the endgame. The problem is not only Black's activity, but the uncoordination of White's pieces in the first and second ranks. White often has to twist the position to avoid ...Nc2 tactics and ...e5 breaks, which loses tempi in trying to make more useful moves.

In the rare occurrence that a stable advantage for White is found in this line, the even solider line with ...c6/d5 is perhaps even more annoying.
  

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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #8 - 12/19/11 at 16:29:10
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Gilchrist, 

My thoughts on this line are complicated. I desperately would like to believe that somehow this is good for White. Why? Because I believe that the fianchetto variation of the King's Indian is practically a forced win for White! I say this half-jokingly of course, but Black's play is so difficult in these lines, and the counterplay so atypical for the King's Indian (where most players want to play ...e5, ...f5, ...f4,...g5 without thinking - which rarely works against the fianchetto), that players below master strength, and sometimes above, struggle against the pressure, and White can often get an effortless win. (The new book Wojo's Weapon Vol. 2 emphasizes this point, and it is consistent with my experience.)

My reluctance to play g3 against ...g6 is the result of my questions about the Grunfeld.

I am not sure that blitz is the best test.  My sense is that blitz places a higher priority on active play, and in this variation that may tip the scale to black. White's play is more subtle, and probably requires more thought. That said, I am beginning to understand this opening better, and feel more comfortable - and even doing better with it in blitz.  (However, I have been examining only one variation - fortunately the most common, and the one most often recommended in books for Black.  White is struggling in several fianchetto variations to prove something.  For example, I don't know how to address the line in Vass's question in this thread.)

Perhaps it worth noting that it is increasingly difficult for White to prove an edge in any variation of the Grunfeld! The Grunfeld is becoming a tough nut to crack.

Still, at the moment, in an important game, I will play g3 when Black commits to the king's indian (such as in lines with an early ...d6), but will probably play more classically after the usual order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6. Meanwhile, I will continue looking for an edge in the fianchetto lines of the Grunfeld.
« Last Edit: 12/19/11 at 21:06:23 by oldguy »  
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Re: Avrukh's line in the Grunfeld
Reply #7 - 12/19/11 at 08:08:12
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I played this line as White a few times in blitz this week, and lost all of my games. I play the line with 10...a5 as Black as well, and I won my games. I cannot find a method of fighting for the advantage as White in this line. I feel like avoiding this line as White.
  

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