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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 104809 times)
proustiskeen
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #108 - 03/13/12 at 18:31:04
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The plural of anecdote is not data.  Sigh.

The problem with the Dragon is that, most of the time, young Dragon players don't even play the Dragon well, much less the sidelines.  They play stereotypical moves without understanding why or how the moves might work.  And the tactics they do learn are rather specific to Dragon positions.

We can all point to specific GMs who got great because they played X, Y, or Z.  Swell.  They probably would have been GMs irregardless of what they played.  I'm interested in what's good pedagogically for mere mortals, and open games / tactics seem to be the royal road to chess improvement.  That's enough for me.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #107 - 03/13/12 at 18:00:19
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No, the dragon is a suboptimal junior opening because the play and tactics associated with it are both very fixed and individual to the opening. 

All you learn is how to play the dragon. Thus having trouble with 2 c3 and the like.

Of course if you've got a basic grounding in more basic openings first then this is much less of a problem.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #106 - 03/13/12 at 17:17:42
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So, the reason that the Dragon is a bad opening is because of 2.c3? LOL. 

Why can't I say the same about the Two Knights because of 4.d3!?

And for every example of someone doing better with e5 (a fine opening to be sure) there are other examples of people doing better with c5 or e6. Were Varuzhan Akobian and Nigel Short wrong to have played the French in their youth? In the former's case, he played closed openings as White as well...was this totally wrong? Weeramantry having Nakamura play the Sicilian through the most critical year for his "chess education" 1997? I could go on with examples...



  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #105 - 03/13/12 at 14:18:41
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Yes seriously people - the work done with the Manchester juniors was/is hugely impressive in terms of results. 

No one is suggesting anything very categorical! Just the sorts of positions that young folk should play.

After a bit can/do let them branch out - the strong Manchester ex juniors now have quite different styles and openings, but all no doubt benefit from learning tactics when young.

About the only thing in common is a tendency to play sensibly mainstream stuff rather more often than can be common for some people in the UK.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #104 - 03/13/12 at 14:02:29
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Dink Heckler wrote on 03/13/12 at 13:38:28:
Two objections: everyone agrees on what you should do: brush your teeth, be polite, get your five a day, study hard, go to medical school, stop wasting your time on chess etc etc. Doesn't mean everyone does it; doling out good advice is free, but in the real world, one has to cater to individuals' proclivities. Unfortunately, some people want to make everything black and white, whereas life (and perhaps even chess!) is better characterised in shades of grey.

Secondly, and more specifically, I could quote dozens of highly respected sources arguing that ambitious youngsters should study the classics and study endgames. And yet the kidz go their own way, with impressive results. 

So, yeah, Open Games good, categorical thinking bad.


Dink Heckler wrote on 03/13/12 at 13:45:09:
Getting the best out of a student is largely about interpersonal dynamics. Otherwise you may as well just tell them to read a book. So 'my way or the highway' isn't likely to get the job done. It worked for the East German athletics program, no doubt, but times change.


Don't know what happened, but when I posted, I only got an empty post. Sorry if I double-post.

Tactics is more common in open positions, but there are lots of "closed games" that contain a lot more tactics than some "closed games", maybe partly because there are more tension built up and fewer exchanges made going into the middle game.

In theory, I also think that what Paddy just reposted makes sense. But even more so does the above quotes, especially the part about categorical thinking. I thought this was one of the main things that has changed since My System etc?!


  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #103 - 03/13/12 at 13:47:18
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Bibs wrote on 03/13/12 at 10:47:22:
Markovich is very opinionated of course. And vocal with it. That, of course does not make him right. Equally it does not make him wrong.
He does speak a lot of sense with regard to coaching and opening choices imho. 
Speaking as a school teacher, now a uni lecturer, an experienced chess coach and a reasonable-ish player (finally paid for my FM 'title' just now).

I actually do strongly agree that young 'uns playing the Dragon is very bad for their chess. Saw this first hand as all juniors where I lived bought a certain GM's dragon books. Good books, nice fella, but the dragon is poor for beginners' chess development. 

10-15 moves of 'theory' in their young heads. 2.c3 and things fell apart in several. 
Pity, a real pity.

I had this problem during my early chessplaying days, when I got strongly attracted to the Sicilian Dragon due to the complications and wild attacks in the Yugoslav as well as some lines in the Levenfish and Classical.  Chris Ward was certainly a strong source of inspiration whose passion for the ...Qa5 approach was extremely infectious.  I gave it up about a decade ago, not because of the theoretical problems facing Ward's favourite 10...Qa5 line in the Yugoslav, but because I never felt at home in the various sidelines such as 2.c3, 2.Nc3, 3.Bb5(+) and 3.Bc4, and most importantly, didn't really know what I was doing against them.

These days I feel a lot more home in the positions that result from meeting 1.e4 with both 1...e5 (and yes I do employ the Two Knights a fair amount) and the gambits stemming from 1...d5 2.exd5 Nf6 which also become open and tactical very quickly.  I'm sure that many proponents of the "Markovich doctrine" would also agree that in the case of the Ruy Lopez Black is better off looking for early deviations (e.g. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4, 5...Bc5, 3...Nf6/4...Bc5) rather than heading into the strategically complex lines of the Closed.  The Marshall Attack suffers from the same problem as the Dragon- if White ducks out with an Anti-Marshall then the resulting positions are hard for most juniors to play.

Where I would stop short of is any suggestion of players being bound to using 1.e4 e5 and the Tarrasch Defence exclusively up to say 2000 Elo, on the basis that many former world champions actually used other approaches extensively in their scholastic years, albeit typically accompanied by a certain amount of grounding in the classic Open Games.  

There is also the issue of some who play chess for fun rather than necessarily maximum improvement (I would actually place myself in this category) although considering that my fairly rapid improvement in the last five years has coincided exactly with my employing more open games (with both White and Black) and has also seen an increase in my enjoyment of chess as a whole, I could hardly use my experiences as evidence against any of the general principles underpinning the Markovich doctrine.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #102 - 03/13/12 at 13:45:09
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Getting the best out of a student is largely about interpersonal dynamics. Otherwise you may as well just tell them to read a book. So 'my way or the highway' isn't likely to get the job done. It worked for the East German athletics program, no doubt, but times change.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #101 - 03/13/12 at 13:38:28
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Two objections: everyone agrees on what you should do: brush your teeth, be polite, get your five a day, study hard, go to medical school, stop wasting your time on chess etc etc. Doesn't mean everyone does it; doling out good advice is free, but in the real world, one has to cater to individuals' proclivities. Unfortunately, some people want to make everything black and white, whereas life (and perhaps even chess!) is better characterised in shades of grey.

Secondly, and more specifically, I could quote dozens of highly respected sources arguing that ambitious youngsters should study the classics and study endgames. And yet the kidz go their own way, with impressive results. 

So, yeah, Open Games good, categorical thinking bad.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #100 - 03/13/12 at 12:30:09
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I no longer have the book, but my recollection is that Yermolinsky qualified his objections to the Zak approach by subsequently ruing not paying closer attention to his lectures on Black's compensation in the 2 Knights?  It could be my memory has changed the text to suit my prejudices.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #99 - 03/13/12 at 12:18:12
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And Paddy knows a lot more about this than me, so listen to him!
Remarkable success that the Manchester juniors had under him for many years.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #98 - 03/13/12 at 12:14:53
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Bibs wrote on 03/13/12 at 11:58:13:
For me, from what I remember, I did openings later when it cropped up, not right at the beginning, when students got stronger, when it became necessary. 

Otherwise:
lots of tactics 
lots of Morphy type hacky games - bits out, forward!
lots of Reinfeld type master-beats-amateur = 'clear plan' games 
essential endgames

Agree with Zwzz about language by the way, well, with regard to language teaching fashions anyhow.


A useful brief summary from Bibs!

This argument seems to arise every year on this forum. Usually someone with no coaching experence asks for advice, gets it from Markovich, me and others with coaching experience, and then starts arguing back. I'm amazed at Markovich's patience!

Last year I tried to convince non-believers by a different approach - quoting scripture. Maybe this is worth repeating:

Paddy wrote on 02/26/11 at 14:12:52:
Some opinions I have found on the Open Games vs Closed games debate.

"A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defence and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game." GM Richard Reti (!), "Masters of the Chessboard" (Bell,1933)

"Players of the 4th and 5th categories are recommended to play as far as possible OPEN GAMES (except for the Ruy Lopez). It is useful to employ gambits. (...) Here it is very useful to analyse for example, games of Anderssen, Morphy and Tchigorin.
GM Alexey Suetin, "Modern Chess Opening Theory", (Pergamon,1965). 

"There are two ways of solving this problem. One is to select some half-open system and study its hidden possibilities thoroughly enough to remove any fear of surprises that your opponent might have prepared against you. Granted a certain rationale in this method, which does enable a player to achieve perfectly adequate competitive results, a more purposeful approach (from the point of view of improving your play most rapidly) is to opt for 1...e5! In this case it often happens that from the very first moves the game enters the realm of tactical complications, the analysis of which will quickly contribute to raising your class of play. Admittedly this entals much more work."
Vladimir Zak, "Improve our Chess Results", (Batsford 1985). (Zak was an important coach in Leningrad for many years; he was first coach to Spassky, Korchnoi and others. For a dissenting voice, not to say a hatchet-job on Zak, see Yermolinsky's "The Road to Chess Improvement".)

"It is always best, when learning anything, first to try to do the simplest things well and then to learn the more difficult, and this is particularly true here. The objects and methods in closed positions are far more subtle and hidden than those in open positions, and very considerable knowledge and experience, as well as ability, are necessary to play the close game even reasonably well. In the open game, however, both the object - direct attack on some point in the enemy game, often the king's position - and the method - rapid and effective development - are very much simpler and can be understood and reasonably attempted by comparatively weak players. And it is only by starting with the open game that a chess player will learn how to make combinations, an obvious essential to anyone who wishes to play well. Position play will come later and is in any case useless without combinative ability, since it is only by a combination that positional advantage can normally be turned to account." 
IM Hugh Alexander, "Chess", Pitman 1968. (In the period 1935-1955, Alexander was England's strongest player, who took many international scalps, including Botvinnik and Bronstein. His chess career is said to have been constrained by the fact that he was an important figure in British Intelligence.)

"All chess openings starting with 1 d4 are called 'closed' or 'semi-closed'. To play them well and efficiently, one must have a certain understanding of position and some experience. Therefore I advise you to play, at least for a year, 'open' games, and only after this can you start playing 'closed' games."
Garry Kasparov, "Kasparov Teaches Chess", Batsford 1986.

So, except for Yermolinsky, the expert views I have found so far are very much in favour of what has become known here as the "Markovich Doctrine" (cheers, Mark  Wink )

As well as the open games - closed games debate there's another related dichotomy: clear goals vs flexibility. 

Flexible openings (e.g. Flank Openings, the Modern defence, the Nimzo-Indian...) make great demands on a player's positional skill and experience (aka pattern recognition), not only requiring a wide knowledge of different structures, but also the ability to distinguish between favourable and unfavourable versions of the same structure.

GM Nigel Davies has just written about this issue at his website http://chessimprover.com: I quote:

"The basic problem is that (...) flexible openings make great demands on someone’s positional play because they can resolve themselves into many different types of pawn structure. (...) So for a relatively inexperienced player or one whose positional play has not been highly developed it’s much better to play something much more direct in which the position of the central pawns is decided early on and the plans become relatively clear. The London System tends to be very good for this as do the Colle-Zukertort and Torre Attack, and after 1.e4 there are good choices in the f4 Sicilian and Scotch. And if you’re under 1400 you don’t really need to think about these things at all, just get your pieces out and try to assimilate an understanding of a few classic game plans!

One of the reasons more sophisticated openings tend to be popular with Grandmasters is BECAUSE they are so difficult for less experienced players to get to grips with, so they can outplay their opponents much more easily. When beginners play such lines they are not doing themselves any favours, the structural and planning issues will be too complex until they’ve mastered simpler concepts. And they’ll never master the basics whilst wallowing in a sea of flexibility."

Well, I guess Markovich and I would take issue with Davies's suggestions of 1 d4 openings for juniors or inexperienced players, but Davies's main point is sound and important in the context of this discussion.


You better believe it!  Smiley
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #97 - 03/13/12 at 12:08:30
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/13/12 at 02:58:44:
What if the student is doing well with the Dragon and wants to continue playing it? I would think the Dragon is very suitable for tactical players. Most players under 1800 or so are not equipped with all of the theory and a Dragon player can win many games in under 25 moves like this and with tactics.

That describes exactly the problem. It's a special subgroup of tactics. And while being successful a good basic chess education will be lacking.

Personally I would ask the player if he wants to be restricted to this.  I know ~5 players reaching FM level with a repertoire restricted to fianchetto openings.

As a trainer you have the obligation to offer a more complete view to chess. Training tactical motivs, showing classical games, endgames with pawn and with rooks - that's probably more important.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #96 - 03/13/12 at 11:58:13
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For me, from what I remember, I did openings later when it cropped up, not right at the beginning, when students got stronger, when it became necessary. 

Otherwise:
lots of tactics 
lots of Morphy type hacky games - bits out, forward!
lots of Reinfeld type master-beats-amateur = 'clear plan' games 
essential endgames

Agree with Zwzz about language by the way, well, with regard to language teaching fashions anyhow.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #95 - 03/13/12 at 11:19:10
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For me (as an absolute layman concerning chess coaching) it somehow seems counterintuitive to force the students to play only open positions. If a student doesn't like them he/she might just lose his/her interest in chess, stop playing (and drop out of any 'success rate' statistics). Me as a teacher would rather make them play all sorts of positions to find out what they are good or bad in and what they like. So I wouldn't let them always play what they want, but force them from time to time into certain openings.

Having a short glance at Silman's "Schach, aber richtig!" (the German edition of "The Amateur's mind"), Silman doesn't seem to be very concerned about the choice of particular openings. I don't know how successful as a chess coach he is, but taking his reputation as an author, he might not be too bad.
I also remember Yermolinsky complaining (in his "Road to Chess Improvement") about his education in the former USSR, when his teacher (Zak, as far as I remember? - I don't have the book at hand at the moment) always forced him to analyze and learn some annoying lines from “open” openings, especially the King’s Gambit. So one of the first things he learned was hating those openings.

I also wouldn’t be too happy if some laymen would try to tell me how I should do my job as a language researcher. But maybe here is also valid what I learned about language research a long time ago: Don’t believe anything what any language informant tells you about how his language works, but take everything serious!

Bibs wrote on 03/13/12 at 10:47:22:
10-15 moves of 'theory' in their young heads. 2.c3 and things fell apart in several. 
Pity, a real pity.


But isn't that also a part of the lifelong process of learning to play chess - which sort and which amount of theory makes sense to be absorbed? 

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #94 - 03/13/12 at 10:47:22
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Markovich is very opinionated of course. And vocal with it. That, of course does not make him right. Equally it does not make him wrong.
He does speak a lot of sense with regard to coaching and opening choices imho. 
Speaking as a school teacher, now a uni lecturer, an experienced chess coach and a reasonable-ish player (finally paid for my FM 'title' just now).

I actually do strongly agree that young 'uns playing the Dragon is very bad for their chess. Saw this first hand as all juniors where I lived bought a certain GM's dragon books. Good books, nice fella, but the dragon is poor for beginners' chess development. 

10-15 moves of 'theory' in their young heads. 2.c3 and things fell apart in several. 
Pity, a real pity.
  
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