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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 104761 times)
Markovich
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #48 - 03/02/12 at 11:46:30
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It's true that we've gone off topic and that I have contributed to it.  I'll shut up now about what systems young players should play.  I would reorganize the thread but it's too much trouble right now.  It does seem to have some peripheral relevance for Kaufman's book.
  
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fling
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #47 - 03/02/12 at 09:18:54
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emary wrote on 03/02/12 at 08:29:05:
I sugggest we return to Kaufman's repertoire in this thread !


That wouldn't be as much fun!

fluffy wrote on 03/02/12 at 02:29:46:
it's unbelievable some of the stuff I am reading on this thread...


Out of curiosity, do you mean the talk about playing 1.e4 e5, or e.g. that u1500 players shouldn't play the KID - No KID for kids, lol! Or something else? If I were a coach I would recommend kids to read your KID books, after all they are about Attacking Chess, rather than to play "boring" 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 just for the sake of it Grin
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #46 - 03/02/12 at 08:29:05
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I sugggest we return to Kaufman's repertoire in this thread !
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #45 - 03/02/12 at 05:57:09
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If all players rated under 1800 or 2000 played 1. e4 e5, then if I played 1. e4, I would know exactly how to prepare for anyone in that rating category then? And equally, if I knew that a certain player played exclusively 1. d4 d5, I would know exactly how to prepare against that player since 1. d4 d5 would have a basically 100% chance of materialising in a tournament game?
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #44 - 03/02/12 at 03:07:47
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/02/12 at 03:04:13:
Grin Thanks, Mr. Paulsen...

p.s....looking forward to your work...


+1
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #43 - 03/02/12 at 03:04:13
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Grin Thanks, Mr. Paulsen...

p.s....looking forward to your work...
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #42 - 03/02/12 at 02:49:42
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/02/12 at 02:45:15:
LOL. I think this is hilarious. Now that I'm chiming-in, are we officially off-topic?? I thought this thread was about Kaufman's book and not about what openings you should play? Well...what happened? Oh I get it. It depends on who is saying it. If I do it, it's off topic....

Second, I don't see how it's possible that you could train someone to play openings they don't want to play and act like everyone is going to make master. I think it's wearisome and absurd.

IM Ambartsoumian told me he has his kids try out different openings (and he was a Soviet Trainer, so he probably knows more than everyone else on this thread put together) to see which one they like. One promising student was trying out the French, e5, AND the Sicilian. He was around 6 years old. 

It reminds me of Robert Snyder (yes, that guy) who would compel his students to play e5 no matter what.  The most successful students played the Najdorf anyway. I've met several of them. Or you can think back to Vladimir Zak's tyranny of also ordering his students to play e5... AND 1.e4, just like Snyder. So one day,the young promising Yermolinksy beats the crap out of a local St Petersburg master (Yermo's first victory over one) and proudly begins to show the game to his teacher...1.g3. Zak walks away in disgust. Yermo NEVER forgot that.

The idea that anyone should play anything, otherwise that person should leave the game has got to be the most [phrase that would be be censored had I wriiten it]ever uttered here...You would rather have a student walk away from the King of games, and a life-time of enjoyment, to justify your pedantic inclinations?? Holy [phrase that would be censored had I written it].

Ask Daniel King and he'll tell you that openings don't have styles, players do. Let them explore.

So, to sum up:

1) LULZ
2) Are we off-topic now?
3) Let the kids play what they want...


Grin

We need a thumbs up smiley.  Smiley
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #41 - 03/02/12 at 02:45:15
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LOL. I think this is hilarious. Now that I'm chiming-in, are we officially off-topic?? I thought this thread was about Kaufman's book and not about what openings you should play? Well...what happened? Oh I get it. It depends on who is saying it. If I do it, it's off topic....

Second, I don't see how it's possible that you could train someone to play openings they don't want to play and act like everyone is going to make master. I think it's wearisome and absurd.

IM Ambartsoumian told me he has his kids try out different openings (and he was a Soviet Trainer, so he probably knows more than everyone else on this thread put together) to see which one they like. One promising student was trying out the French, e5, AND the Sicilian. He was around 6 years old. 

It reminds me of Robert Snyder (yes, that guy) who would compel his students to play e5 no matter what.  The most successful students played the Najdorf anyway. I've met several of them. Or you can think back to Vladimir Zak's tyranny of also ordering his students to play e5... AND 1.e4, just like Snyder. So one day,the young promising Yermolinksy beats the crap out of a local St Petersburg master (Yermo's first victory over one) and proudly begins to show the game to his teacher...1.g3. Zak walks away in disgust. Yermo NEVER forgot that.

The idea that anyone should play anything, otherwise that person should leave the game has got to be the most [phrase that would be be censored had I wriiten it]ever uttered here...You would rather have a student walk away from the King of games, and a life-time of enjoyment, to justify your pedantic inclinations?? Holy [phrase that would be censored had I written it].

Ask Daniel King and he'll tell you that openings don't have styles, players do. Let them explore.

So, to sum up:

1) LULZ
2) Are we off-topic now?
3) Let the kids play what they want...
  
"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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BPaulsen
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #40 - 03/02/12 at 02:42:39
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Markovich wrote on 03/02/12 at 01:50:09:

@BPaulsen: You must be teaching a more advanced class of player than I was if they mastered IQP and the fundamental ideas of the French. Personally I never wanted to distract my players with the latter while they were still having trouble with the former.


The bulk were 1000-1400 range.

And having the student master them isn't the objective (mastery would imply a 2200+ player), instructing ideas isn't particularly hard. They can, and will, learn to place their pieces and what to look for in various archetypal positions - this is true in the open games or any other opening a learning student of the game will be subjected to. Every single person on this entire forum knows that.

Quote:

That you personally have found 4.c4 easy to play against doesn't really address my point, which is that in that system, he who better understands play in open positions is likely to win. Or perhaps you are one of those who thinks that theory is important for 1200s.


The fact I found 4.c4 easy to handle was because I learned the ideas for both sides. This is stressed with students as well - having an idea of what to do in a wide variety of positions will benefit them just fine regardless of what openings it initially comes from.

It's a really easy to understand position for both colors - that's my point. The French is also pretty easy to instruct due to pawn chains being frequent (indeed, I've seen some people criticize the French due to its perceived lack of ideas, ...c5/...f6/...Be8-g6/h5 or ...b6/...Ba6, then what?). This would actually mean my approach puts even less priority on theory over ideas - it just so happens to be an opening where the theory fits in with the ideas, rather than the ideas being dictated by the theory (ie: Poison Pawn Najdorf).

Chess is a universalist game these days that favors breadth of knowledge over specialization. There's no definitive line as to where they have to learn X or Y opening so long as they keep learning.

The student should learn all they can, constantly, and there is little reason to make them play 1...e5 for X amount of time based purely on their ELO. The coach should know when it is time to broaden their horizons.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #39 - 03/02/12 at 02:29:46
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it's unbelievable some of the stuff I am reading on this thread...
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #38 - 03/02/12 at 01:50:09
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MarkG wrote on 03/01/12 at 19:10:37:
Markovich wrote on 03/01/12 at 18:44:11:

Someone said that he would have given up chess if he'd had to play 1..e5 until reaching 2000.  Personally, if he wasn't willing to play 1...e5, I would have commended such a decision. 


Really? You would commend someone for giving up chess entirely rather than play the openings you think they should play?


I would commend their giving up chess rather than taking a thoroughly misguided approach to it. But in fairness I have never told anyone to give up chess. I have, I admit, told a few players that if they didn't want to play the Two Knights, they could find another coach. It's the character of the play, not the particular system, that's important, but I think the Two Knights is a superb teaching tool.

@Gilchrist: Yes, and if someone could go from novice to World Champion in two months by playing 1...a6, it would be a very grave mistake to tell them to stop doing it. How profoundly this refutes my case, I now see.

@Stigma: The path to success is learning how to play open positions, first and foremost. Once they can knock off the occasional Master with sharp tactics in open positions, I really do not have the skill or insight to advise them further. But until they can do that, that is what they should strive to do -- and style be damned.

@BPaulsen: You must be teaching a more advanced class of player than I was if they mastered IQP and the fundamental ideas of the French. Personally I never wanted to distract my players with the latter while they were still having trouble with the former.

That you personally have found 4.c4 easy to play against doesn't really address my point, which is that in that system, he who better understands play in open positions is likely to win. Or perhaps you are one of those who thinks that theory is important for 1200s.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #37 - 03/02/12 at 01:08:31
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Stigma wrote on 03/02/12 at 00:43:07:
It's perfectly OK to tell people (beginners, class players) that playing open positions/openings is the surest and fastest way to improve. But it's not OK to tell them they should quit the game if they have different tastes. 

For most people chess is a hobby, for god's sake. We play it to have fun. Most class players I know don't just have a style, they positively enjoy playing their favorite openings, emulating their favorite player (however poorly) and surprising their regular opponents with their latest outrageous opening idea.

Not everybody is committed to getting to master as quickly as possible. And there are even other ways of doing that, as has been pointed out here. I looked up some of Carlsen's earliest games; he played the Closed Sicilian, the Velitsky Attack, and tried the King's Indian and the Pirc with Black. Radjabov started with lots of Colle-Zukertorts, Stonewall Attacks, Trompowskys and sedate g3\b3 lines, while aiming for closed Frenches and Stonewalls with Black.

Surely something like the Markovich doctrine is the most widely recommended and successful approach, but if someone has personal reservations against it (or isn't exposed to it at the appropriate time) they can find their own path to success if they work hard enough.


True, and also further, some eager chess players view the game as a sport or activity by which to excel, just like playing football. So if a chess player is having much success with, for example, 1. e4 c5 than 1. e4 e5, or the Grünfeld than 1. d4 d5, going from 1200 to 2000 in two years rather than 1200 to 1500 in two years playing 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5, then it would be in the player's best interests to play the openings that the player excels at most.

As a more illustrative example, if a 1200 who plays the Sicilian and the Grünfeld because it suits the player's style earns the grandmaster title in a few years after switching from 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5, surely their opening choices would be an asset to their success, rather than a detriment.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #36 - 03/02/12 at 00:43:07
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It's perfectly OK to tell people (beginners, class players) that playing open positions/openings is the surest and fastest way to improve. But it's not OK to tell them they should quit the game if they have different tastes. 

For most people chess is a hobby, for god's sake. We play it to have fun. Most class players I know don't just have a style, they positively enjoy playing their favorite openings, emulating their favorite player (however poorly) and surprising their regular opponents with their latest outrageous opening idea.

Not everybody is committed to getting to master as quickly as possible. And there are even other ways of doing that, as has been pointed out here. I looked up some of Carlsen's earliest games; he played the Closed Sicilian, the Velitsky Attack, and tried the King's Indian and the Pirc with Black. Radjabov started with lots of Colle-Zukertorts, Stonewall Attacks, Trompowskys and sedate g3\b3 lines, while aiming for closed Frenches and Stonewalls with Black.

Surely something like the Markovich doctrine is the most widely recommended and successful approach, but if someone has personal reservations against it (or isn't exposed to it at the appropriate time) they can find their own path to success if they work hard enough.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #35 - 03/01/12 at 23:42:26
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Isn't the Breyer just a little bit passive somehow and so requiring a little bit of delicacy in its handling? Something a little bit more direct maybe better for training tactical play in open positions.

Don't think I ever actually played e4 e5 myself as black but did play plenty of open games with white, so not that bad.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #34 - 03/01/12 at 23:33:48
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/01/12 at 20:12:23:
If those openings are unsuited for lower rated players, I do not think I would be around 2250 now.

You are mixing the general (most lower rated players) with the specific (you). The only thing (but an important one) you show is that coaches shouldn't be too dogmatic.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/01/12 at 21:25:21:
Or telling a maths student to study only ordinary differential equations because advancing to partial differential equations is too difficult.

Tricky analogy. Would you teach someone differential equations who never has calculated variables before?
  
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