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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 104769 times)
Markovich
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #63 - 03/08/12 at 03:58:18
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/08/12 at 00:58:12:
Again I think this was addressed before, but not every player will be suited to learn only 1. e4 e5 or 1. d4 d5 in order to improve. The only books I read in my first year of tournament chess were opening books, and went from 1100 to nearly 2300 in 4 years with the Sicilian Taimanov and Najdorf against 1. e4, King's Indian against 1. d4 in that time frame. The Sicilian I won against higher rated players than I did with 1. e4 e5. The Sicilian Najdorf and the King's Indian were the openings I played exclusively in the tournament I got an IM norm, as well as the same openings I played since I was 1400, so 1. e4 e5 has not exactly helped me to get past 2000 nor succeed against titled players. Likewise I would not expect someone else to play my openings to succeed. The openings in Kaufman's book should be able to serve well for a player who does not want to play 1. e4 e5 from 0 to 2400 if the player is willing to play new openings.


How many players have you coached, may I ask? 

And for the upteenth time, the important thing is not what first few moves you play, but what kind of positions arise on the board.  It would be nice if you would acknowledge that some of us, at least, think that that is what the discussion is about.  What is important for young and improving players is not to play any particular system, but to learn how to play open positions.  

The idea that anyone would be unsuited for playing open positions is a joke.  If you can't play open positions well, you can't play chess.

I salute your progress in this game, but it is the experience of one person, and it hardly serves to contradict what has come to be a rather widespread point of view among people coaching young players. Frankly I suspect that your game would be even better if you'd spent more time on piece play in open positions.  But since I have no knowledge of your game, I can't say that with any assurance.

I am not saying that people can't become good players doing whatever the blazes they want.  I'm saying that the surest road to improvement is to learn, first and foremost, how to play open positions.  Actually for this reason, I think it would be rather irresponsible to take moderately talented ten-year-olds and teach them the King's Indian, which rarely gives rise to an open position.

Or else, fine! If you ever have a class of 10-year-olds, start them out playing closed positions, and let me know how much progress they make.
  

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Markovich
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #62 - 03/08/12 at 03:45:24
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Since I went to the trouble to split this thread off of "The Kaufman Repertoire," it irks me that that title returned via quotations of earlier posts.  I have gone back several posts and edited the subject line.  Any more posts appearing here with the header "The Kaufman Repertoire" will be summarily deleted.
  

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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #61 - 03/08/12 at 00:58:12
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Again I think this was addressed before, but not every player will be suited to learn only 1. e4 e5 or 1. d4 d5 in order to improve. The only books I read in my first year of tournament chess were opening books, and went from 1100 to nearly 2300 in 4 years with the Sicilian Taimanov and Najdorf against 1. e4, King's Indian against 1. d4 in that time frame. The Sicilian I won against higher rated players than I did with 1. e4 e5. The Sicilian Najdorf and the King's Indian were the openings I played exclusively in the tournament I got an IM norm, as well as the same openings I played since I was 1400, so 1. e4 e5 has not exactly helped me to get past 2000 nor succeed against titled players. Likewise I would not expect someone else to play my openings to succeed. The openings in Kaufman's book should be able to serve well for a player who does not want to play 1. e4 e5 from 0 to 2400 if the player is willing to play new openings.
« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:41:45 by Markovich »  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #60 - 03/08/12 at 00:39:25
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I am tired of being rotten at this game.  Jumping around in openings never helped with endgames or the middle game. I agree with Markovic's Doctrine.  Why because King's indian and Najdorf for example have not gotten me a master rating.  I am going to follow Markovic's repertoire completly for 1 year. This means Tarrasch vs d4, 1...e5 vs e4 and of course 1.e4 If he reads this I would be curious what he recommends vs ALekine, Morder/Pirc?  I will write down the doctrine and keep it with me.  This is one way to deal with my opening obsessions which most of you know.  I apologise for my repeated questions.  I never never meant to annoy but to learn.  To those who answered my questions I would like to thank you for your time and patience again!!!!!  
I think Markovic is right that mastering open games is essential.  If you still don't believe him ask John Watson he wrote about open positions in his book volume 4 on the openings.  
I would like to talk about other parts of my plan.  I am thinking of reading Silman's endgame book and Reasee your chess (I have studied the ameteour mind) I am thinking this is all I need for strategy and endgame?!?!?  And Tactics read through Polgars book then Silman/Seirwan book and John Nunn's book on tactics.  And play at least a few games every day?!?
ALso if any would like to mentor me or know someone who will for reasonable prices let me know...  Thank you 
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« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:42:02 by Markovich »  
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BPaulsen
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #59 - 03/03/12 at 01:42:03
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My first book was "My System" by Nimzowitsch. 

I don't think it matters where you start so long as you synthesize the information and keep actively seeking to add to your knowledge base.

My two cents.
« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:42:20 by Markovich »  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #58 - 03/03/12 at 00:41:24
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I wonder also, did I make a mistake when I was 1100 and my first two chess books were Nunn's Chess Openings and Play the Open Games?
« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:42:37 by Markovich »  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #57 - 03/03/12 at 00:23:43
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ErictheRed - People often say that Polugaevsky didn't become world champion because he didn't have experience with 1...e5.  Really?


I remember another story with Polugaevsky. Once he was talking with Gavrikov who told him about his idea to create a magazine about chess openings. Polugaevsky became curious and asked Gavrikov about what openings he will cover. Gavrikov said to him: Only correct openings! Polugaevsky paused for a few seconds and asked him again: What openings are you thinking about? And Gavrikov replied: Only 1...e5 and the Najdorf, nothing else!   

« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:42:59 by Markovich »  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #56 - 03/02/12 at 23:41:40
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barnaby wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:40:48:
http://main.uschess.org/content/view/11634/658/

This recent Shahade piece seems to be a fitting variant /continuation of similar discussions that break out here like wild fire.  Instead of posting it in the current Kaufman thread I started new thread on the topic...(which will probably see less use because discussions that grow organically in other threads are more interesting and fruitful despite violating the "off topic" taboo.     Wink )

Thanks for posting this....
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #55 - 03/02/12 at 19:56:20
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:42:35:
While we're still off topic: cricket sucks.  Ahh, that felt good.


But then again, I would rather play 1. e4 e5 exclusively until I was 2000 than watch an NFL match for 5 minutes. Maybe even until I was 2300...
« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:43:28 by Markovich »  

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Markovich
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #54 - 03/02/12 at 18:03:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:42:35:
While we're still off topic: cricket sucks.  Ahh, that felt good.

Still off topic: I'm with Stigma and BPaulsen about the whole "what openings people should play" thing.  People should try to understand all types of positions as best they can and generally play whatever interests them most at the time.  I think people naturally play better when they are interested, their creative juices are flowing, etc.

Where did this dogmatic idea of having to play 1.e4 e5 come from?  I see the importance of learning to play open positions, but surely that isn't the only way to get that experience.  People often say that Polugaevsky didn't become world champion because he didn't have experience with 1...e5.  Really?  I think that's just dogma.  How many GMs had extensive experience with 1...e5 and never made world champion??  Tons.  Perhaps Polugaevsky, like Korchnoi and many others, was just doomed to be the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world; not such a bad hand to be dealt, that.

Ok I'm done with the off topic posts now  Lips Sealed.


Well, I am accused of dogmatism because I said, with considerable hyperbole, that if some young and developing player wasn't going to play 1...e5, I would commend his decision to give up chess.  In fact however, as I have already said, I do not go around telling juniors to quit the game whenever I see one playing 1...e6.

Nor is my position about 1...e5 all that dogmatic.  As I have said in this thread, and many, many times on this forum, it's not what system you play that's important, it's that you have a very firm grasp of how to play in open positions -- which necessarily involves quite a good grasp of tactics.  1...e5 is merely a vehicle for reaching open positions.  It's possible to play 1...e5 in a closed vein, and I would discourage anyone below 2000 and bent upon very much chess improvement from doing that.

You can dismiss this position as dogmatic if you like.  It really is no more dogmatic than saying that young players should play according to their so-called style, it is just a different point of view.  It is, furthermore, a point of view that is fairly widespread among people who coach young and improving juniors (maybe not the 2000 thing exactly, which is arbitrary in any case, but the idea that open positions with active piece play are fundamental).

Personally, as I have said, I would not have a student who did not play the Two Knights. There are other things you could constructively play, but I find the Two Knights a very good teaching tool, and if a kid or his parents doesn't want to string along with me, they can find themselves another coach.  I never coached for money.

If a kid told me that he thought the Two Knights was boring I would really doubt his good sense.  The Two Knights is not boring; nor is it boring to play the Two Knights in 200 successive games of chess.  If given the opportunity, that would be a very good thing for many young players to do.  In fact, chess is not boring. Even the Exchange Slav in 200 successive games is not boring.  So Boring, so far as I can see, is just as much a straw man as Dogmatic is.

Another straw man here is how easy someone is to prepare for.  Every time anyone sat down against one of my kids, they were sure, or could have been sure if they had bothered to ask anyone, that 1...e5 was going to come down.  That didn't stop them from doing quite well.  But really the idea that anyone would prepare for a sub-2000 player is rather ludicrous.

I really could care a flying fig how anyone approaches chess or how anyone coaches it.  But if someone comes on here and asks "what should I play if I want to improve my game," I'm going to say what I think.  I'm not going to say "play what ever you want" or "play according to your own style" because I sincerely believe that to be bad advice.  

And I also could care a flying fig if anyone here doesn't like it, so long as I myself am maintaining a reasonable standard of politeness.
« Last Edit: 03/08/12 at 03:43:46 by Markovich »  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #53 - 03/02/12 at 16:40:48
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http://main.uschess.org/content/view/11634/658/

This recent Shahade piece seems to be a fitting variant /continuation of similar discussions that break out here like wild fire.  Instead of posting it in the current Kaufman thread I started new thread on the topic...(which will probably see less use because discussions that grow organically in other threads are more interesting and fruitful despite violating the "off topic" taboo.     Wink )
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #52 - 03/02/12 at 17:45:36
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The last 27 Posts were moved here from General Chess [move by] Markovich.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #51 - 03/02/12 at 16:42:35
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While we're still off topic: cricket sucks.  Ahh, that felt good.

Still off topic: I'm with Stigma and BPaulsen about the whole "what openings people should play" thing.  People should try to understand all types of positions as best they can and generally play whatever interests them most at the time.  I think people naturally play better when they are interested, their creative juices are flowing, etc.

Where did this dogmatic idea of having to play 1.e4 e5 come from?  I see the importance of learning to play open positions, but surely that isn't the only way to get that experience.  People often say that Polugaevsky didn't become world champion because he didn't have experience with 1...e5.  Really?  I think that's just dogma.  How many GMs had extensive experience with 1...e5 and never made world champion??  Tons.  Perhaps Polugaevsky, like Korchnoi and many others, was just doomed to be the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world; not such a bad hand to be dealt, that.

Ok I'm done with the off topic posts now  Lips Sealed.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #50 - 03/02/12 at 15:11:58
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Grin Thanks, Mr. Paulsen...

p.s....looking forward to your work...


+2
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #49 - 03/02/12 at 12:05:29
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emary wrote on 03/02/12 at 08:29:05:
I sugggest we return to Kaufman's repertoire in this thread !

I agree. The "what openings should you play?" issue has been flogged to death many times already, though perhaps never quite as dogmatically as in this thread. I seem to have started it by querying the suggestion that Kaufman's new repertoire is unsuitable for players under 1900, and I would still like to know what people think about that. 

This is quite different from asking what openings u1900 players ought to play if they seriously hope to reach 2000 and beyond. I think I am fairly typical of the sort of reader at whom the book is aimed: adult, fairly experienced though still not very strong (and never likely to be), without a huge amount of time to study, and in need of a coherent repertoire that will enable me to get out of the opening with a reasonable position in most of my games. The book seems to me to be the sort of thing I need; but I could be wrong. For example, I'm ready to be told that a different repertoire would suit my needs better because, say, the Grunfeld (or Breyer, or Semi-Slav) is beyond my comprehension. But the fact that I'll never be a strong player because I haven't been playing 1.e4 e5 for the last 50 years doesn't really have much to do with what I'm asking.
  
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