Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 15
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 104777 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #78 - 03/12/12 at 15:29:03
Post Tools
Well, the argument is that at lower levels of play, "your personal playing style" counts for very little. What indeed can a playing style be for a weaker player but an affectation founded on a set of misconceptions? Does some deep understanding of semi-open positions underlie some 12-year-old's passion for the Najdorf, or is it only that he fantasizes about playing like Fischer? Style is not something to be cultivated even in a strong player, why should it be cultivated in a weak one?

I am sorry if it offends anyone's deep sense of individuality, or of his child's for that matter, but at a young age there are certain things that must be learned before other things. It doesn't offend you if someone wants to teach your child addition before teaching him division, or analytic geometry before calculus; why then does it offend you if someone says he should.learn open piece play before taking up 
closed positions?

And I'm NOT talking about repertoire, mind you. Developing a repertoire is one of the last things an improving player should worry about. Now do I deny the importance of individualized instruction. Instruction doen't fail to be individualized just because everyone is working on tactics and open piece play.

I must admit also that I often find myself wondering how many of those theorizing so extensively here about chess instruction have any actual experiece doing it.
« Last Edit: 03/12/12 at 16:45:04 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gorath
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 259
Joined: 07/09/09
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #77 - 03/12/12 at 14:25:06
Post Tools
glut wrote on 03/12/12 at 12:36:42:
I have read a number of these Markovich doctrine discussions, seemingly over the years, but without the evident passion they seem to generate.

Watson in MCO4 when discussing choice of openings for Category C players (ie fairly low) describes the Pirc, Modern and Alekhine as perfectly logical and sound openings .."but i think they have practical drawbacks for the  player below 1600, in that they concede space and don't generally yield as free piece-play. But if you have a strong affinity for any of them, that could outweigh other factors. Personal enjoyment should definitely be a consideration when you're deciding what to play.".

This resonates with me - I have singularly failed to enjoy as black 1.d4 d5 or any number of Italian/Spanish exchange/4 knights games over the years and have found consistently far more rich and double-edged play and much better results (moving from Category C to A) in fianchetto defences, such as the modern/KID.

Symmetrical defences, from analysing my own games, I suspect like Gilchrist, did not help my improvement - rather, I believe they hindered it

My two euros ...


My opinion is similar, although it comes from a slightly different angle.

I find coaches deeply suspect who don't have a look at my personal playing style first, *before* recommending openings suitable for it.
There are certain structures I simply don't like, and others I do like but which I'm not successful with. A coach needs to know what I can play, where my strengths, weaknesses and preferences are and where there is still room for realistic improvement. Only then can he give a qualified recommendation.

I would show any coach, without exception, the door who comes to me and tells me: "Hello, I'm John. This is my concept: It's good for every relatively inexperienced player to play the open games. So now I'm going to teach you e4 e5 with both colours."
Sure, it's comfortable for the coach to recycle the same material for all his pupils, but I doubt it's the right method to get better than average results from his pupils. An improving player with an Andersson style has to be treated differently than a Shirov type player.

I'm talking about opening repertoire, mind you. I'm absolutely for a broad knowledge of middlegame structures. Everybody should learn the basics about pawn structures, etc.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Göran
Senior Member
****
Offline


ChessPublishing is great!

Posts: 454
Location: Sweden
Joined: 02/13/08
Gender: Male
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #76 - 03/12/12 at 12:50:20
Post Tools
May I quote Réti


A beginner should avoid the Queen´s Gambit and the French Defence and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by aquiring a thorough knowledge of the game.”

        Masters of the Chessboard by Richard Réti.

My brain totally agree but my heart sometimes forgets.

By the way, a fantastic opening book.
  

What kind of proof is that?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
glut
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/12/08
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #75 - 03/12/12 at 12:36:42
Post Tools
I have read a number of these Markovich doctrine discussions, seemingly over the years, but without the evident passion they seem to generate.

Watson in MCO4 when discussing choice of openings for Category C players (ie fairly low) describes the Pirc, Modern and Alekhine as perfectly logical and sound openings .."but i think they have practical drawbacks for the  player below 1600, in that they concede space and don't generally yield as free piece-play. But if you have a strong affinity for any of them, that could outweigh other factors. Personal enjoyment should definitely be a consideration when you're deciding what to play.".

This resonates with me - I have singularly failed to enjoy as black 1.d4 d5 or any number of Italian/Spanish exchange/4 knights games over the years and have found consistently far more rich and double-edged play and much better results (moving from Category C to A) in fianchetto defences, such as the modern/KID.

Symmetrical defences, from analysing my own games, I suspect like Gilchrist, did not help my improvement - rather, I believe they hindered it

My two euros ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 297
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #74 - 03/12/12 at 09:54:43
Post Tools
Zatara wrote on 03/08/12 at 00:39:25:
I am tired of being rotten at this game.  Jumping around in openings never helped with endgames or the middle game. I agree with Markovic's Doctrine.  Why because King's indian and Najdorf for example have not gotten me a master rating.  I am going to follow Markovic's repertoire completly for 1 year. This means Tarrasch vs d4, 1...e5 vs e4 and of course 1.e4 If he reads this I would be curious what he recommends vs ALekine, Morder/Pirc?  I will write down the doctrine and keep it with me.  This is one way to deal with my opening obsessions which most of you know.  I apologise for my repeated questions.  I never never meant to annoy but to learn.  To those who answered my questions I would like to thank you for your time and patience again!!!!!  
I think Markovic is right that mastering open games is essential.  If you still don't believe him ask John Watson he wrote about open positions in his book volume 4 on the openings.  
I would like to talk about other parts of my plan.  I am thinking of reading Silman's endgame book and Reasee your chess (I have studied the ameteour mind) I am thinking this is all I need for strategy and endgame?!?!?  And Tactics read through Polgars book then Silman/Seirwan book and John Nunn's book on tactics.  And play at least a few games every day?!?
ALso if any would like to mentor me or know someone who will for reasonable prices let me know...  Thank you 
Zatara


I some time ago presented my choice for my students (elo 1600-1900). It has developed to this:

White:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 and 4.d3 / 3.d4
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6...5.Nc3
1.-c5 2.c3
1.-e6 2.d4 d5 3.ed ed 4.c4 / 4.Nf3 intending  c4 soon
1.-c6 2.c4
1.-d6/1.-g6 Be3-system
1.-Nf6 exchange
1.-d5 early Ne5-system

Black: 
1.e4 Petroff 
1.d4, 1.c4, 1.Nf3 Tarrash/Lasker QG 

I think this is simple, consistent and active enough collection.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #73 - 03/11/12 at 01:48:48
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/11/12 at 01:24:23:
I don't really know what you did either. I can't figure out what you were even trying to do. Did you lose some posts in all these moves?

I clicked on split next to someone's post with the expectation of being able to move it back to the Kaufman thread, and it created two threads with the same title. So then I joined them, but somehow not all the posts were included.

So I'm fit to be tied.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #72 - 03/11/12 at 01:24:23
Post Tools
I don't really know what you did either. I can't figure out what you were even trying to do. Did you lose some posts in all these moves?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #71 - 03/10/12 at 23:51:00
Post Tools
I was trying to move a post by heavypieces back to the Kaufman thread, and I seem to have royally f--ked up this thread. I don't know how to correct it.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #70 - 03/08/12 at 05:50:14
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 03/08/12 at 03:58:18:




The idea that anyone would be unsuited for playing open positions is a joke.  If you can't play open positions well, you can't play chess.




Yes, I agree. I'm the first to say "I can't play chess." I got to 2000 rating after 10 years of playing 1600 to 1700, by switching to the closed games. But I admit, at 2000 my chess still sucks.

Markovich wrote on 03/08/12 at 03:58:18:






I salute your progress in this game, but it is the experience of one person, and it hardly serves to contradict what has come to be a rather widespread point of view among people coaching young players. Frankly I suspect that your game would be even better ...


Oh wait..."If you can't play open positions well, you can't play chess" isn't a universal principle? You should have said, "For most, learning to play open positions is paramount, unless you really are much better at closed positions..." But that wouldn't have sounded quite as neat.

As for guessing G.I.A.L.'s play would have been better had he stuck to open games...hmnnn...if only Garry Kimovich had concentrated more on boring positions, I frankly suspect he would have done a lot better against Kramnik's Berlin Wall...
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #69 - 03/08/12 at 05:49:46
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/08/12 at 05:14:14:
Another thing I'm reminded of is a line from Michael Stean about the old main lines of the Closed Ruy:  "Never in the history of chess have so many moves been repeated so often so quickly by so many people who really didn't understand them."


The only real plan I had when I played it was to play a King's Indian-style ...f5 with that set-up. Eventually I switched to the more tactical Sicilian at 1400. But the Chigorin Rubinstein Spanish that I played was not tactical that is generally associated with positions that some believe those rated around 1000 should play. I learnt tactics that immeasurably helped my play from the Sicilian.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #68 - 03/08/12 at 05:14:14
Post Tools
Another thing I'm reminded of is a line from Michael Stean about the old main lines of the Closed Ruy:  "Never in the history of chess have so many moves been repeated so often so quickly by so many people who really didn't understand them."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #67 - 03/08/12 at 05:06:31
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/08/12 at 04:57:40:
One might wonder, when you were rated 1000, just how many of your opponents played a dozen or so moves of main line Ruy.  (This causes me to recall that my first and lowest rating was 1044, and my games in that first tournament involved things like erroneous piece sacs within the first few moves.)


Remarkably, too many. To this day I still remember having to play the Rubinstein setup with my knights on g7 and f7, pawns on b5/c5/d6/e5/f6/g6/h7 against players in the range of 1100-1500.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #66 - 03/08/12 at 04:57:40
Post Tools
One might wonder, when you were rated 1000, just how many of your opponents played a dozen or so moves of main line Ruy.  (This causes me to recall that my first and lowest rating was 1044, and my games in that first tournament involved things like erroneous piece sacs within the first few moves.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #65 - 03/08/12 at 04:20:32
Post Tools
As I said before, I used to play 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5 as my first openings, but I only played them for less than a year before I switched to the Sicilian and King's Indian. The Sicilian and King's Indian are fairly tactical, and tactics are also good for learning if I guess correctly. And not all 1. e4 e5 positions lead to open, tactical positions. When I played 1. e4 e5, my main defence with this was the Chigorin Spanish. It is probably one of the most closed openings I ever played, and I played this when I was around 1000. There are not many tactics there either, but I do not see how the Sicilian would be less tactical or less instrumental in learning chess fundamentals than a 1. e4 e5 opening like the Chigorin Spanish. Not only the Chigorin Spanish, but I played what seems like the most closed, positional and manoeuvring system in the Chigorin complex, the Rubinstein Variation.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #64 - 03/08/12 at 04:12:39
Post Tools
Zatara wrote on 03/08/12 at 00:39:25:
I am tired of being rotten at this game.  Jumping around in openings never helped with endgames or the middle game. I agree with Markovic's Doctrine.  Why because King's indian and Najdorf for example have not gotten me a master rating.  I am going to follow Markovic's repertoire completly for 1 year. This means Tarrasch vs d4, 1...e5 vs e4 and of course 1.e4 If he reads this I would be curious what he recommends vs ALekine, Morder/Pirc?  I will write down the doctrine and keep it with me.  This is one way to deal with my opening obsessions which most of you know.  I apologise for my repeated questions.  I never never meant to annoy but to learn.  To those who answered my questions I would like to thank you for your time and patience again!!!!!  
I think Markovic is right that mastering open games is essential.  If you still don't believe him ask John Watson he wrote about open positions in his book volume 4 on the openings.  
I would like to talk about other parts of my plan.  I am thinking of reading Silman's endgame book and Reasee your chess (I have studied the ameteour mind) I am thinking this is all I need for strategy and endgame?!?!?  And Tactics read through Polgars book then Silman/Seirwan book and John Nunn's book on tactics.  And play at least a few games every day?!?
ALso if any would like to mentor me or know someone who will for reasonable prices let me know...  Thank you 
Zatara


My advice to you is to stop worrying so much about what openings to play and (1) play a great deal of chess, preferably against challenging but not-too-challenging opponents; (2) spend as much time as possible solving tactics exercises; ;and (3) spend a little time reviewing good attacking games, like the classics by Morphy, Andersson and Chigorin.  Marshall's games are good to study.  Kere's games are very good.

Don't worry about theory.  Learn only enough theory to win your own games.  Gradually as you improve, this rule will imply deeper study of theory.

Openings, even the ones I recommend, are not going to win your games for you.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 15
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo