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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: best systems for improving players (Read 104776 times)
MNb
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #93 - 03/13/12 at 10:30:10
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/13/12 at 06:28:55:
Do I have to wait 5 years and coach 50 students from 1000 to 2000 before I am allowed to post an opinion that might be expressed by someone who plays the Dragon?

That's not what Markovich wrote. He wrote that he won't take your sophistic arguments seriously until then. Just like I won't take sophistic but unqualified arguments seriously how I should teach physics to my kids.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #92 - 03/13/12 at 07:44:28
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No Gilchrist, you don't have to. You should be able to express your opinion. I've helped train and have taught lots of kids (and a few adults). What I find is that a lot of people start playing and are generally paralyzed by the complexities of the opening. I've already posted on what I think of Markovich's thoughts on this - but I want to add that it's best to get the student past the opening and into a middlegame and plan that they enjoy. 

And I don't see the relevance of the appeal to authority argument anyway. Lots of coaches (including an ex-Soviet trainer I referenced earlier) do not follow Markovich's advice. 

And to say that the Dragon is the worst opening ever for a beginner...well that might be. But why? The only reason I can think of is the theory. But it's not the worst, is it? 

Strange. 

And beginner's do have styles. Once they get past the very beginning, they start to exhibit preferences. If you're paying attention, you will spot it. Most prefer attack, but some prefer a more conceptual game. You just have to develop an appreciation for and get to know your student's OTB personality. 

But hey, you could always quote Dr. Tarrasch on his defense to the Queen's Gambit being the most "correct"one.
  

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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #91 - 03/13/12 at 06:28:55
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Do I have to wait 5 years and coach 50 students from 1000 to 2000 before I am allowed to post an opinion that might be expressed by someone who plays the Dragon? And even then, what if those students still play the Najdorf or Dragon? I could have played 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 and nothing else past 1400 and then quit chess at 1401 after I wondered why I am forced to play this way when this is a game, a hobby and sport, with different openings that are present for players to choose to play in tournaments and/or to study, not as if I were trying to disprove the laws of thermodynamics.

Since when does everyone need to be a qualified coach with years of experience to post an opinion on openings on a free website, instead of an actual tournament player who uses openings besides 1. e4 e5 from 1400 to 1600 or 1800 or whatever past 2200 FIDE? Is it because all of my opinions on openings are wrong? If so then I suppose all of my posts must be wrong as well, and I should relenquish playing the Najdorf immediately since my play is deficient in all respects: opening, middlegame, and endgame, because I refused to play 1. e4 e5 for half of my chess career. Is it wrong if players such as Carlsen, Kasparov, Morozevich, Topalov played the Najdorf or Grünfeld before they were 2000?
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #90 - 03/13/12 at 06:12:14
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/13/12 at 02:58:44:
What if the student is doing well with the Dragon and wants to continue playing it? I would think the Dragon is very suitable for tactical players. Most players under 1800 or so are not equipped with all of the theory and a Dragon player can win many games in under 25 moves like this and with tactics.


May I suggest that you go get some experience coaching before 
you further expound your theories here?
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #89 - 03/13/12 at 06:04:15
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proustiskeen wrote on 03/13/12 at 02:31:28:
For what it's worth, I just was asked to take on a private student (first time!), and I'm totally going with the Markovich repertoire.  That is, if I can wean him off the Dragon, which is absolutely the worst opening a youngster could play!

Well, maybe the Sveshnikov is worse.  But not much.


Explain to the kid and his parents why this is the right path. They will accept your advice. But if not, tell them to find another coach. And don't "wean" him, just tell him that this is they way it is.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #88 - 03/13/12 at 02:58:44
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What if the student is doing well with the Dragon and wants to continue playing it? I would think the Dragon is very suitable for tactical players. Most players under 1800 or so are not equipped with all of the theory and a Dragon player can win many games in under 25 moves like this and with tactics.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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proustiskeen
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #87 - 03/13/12 at 02:31:28
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For what it's worth, I just was asked to take on a private student (first time!), and I'm totally going with the Markovich repertoire.  That is, if I can wean him off the Dragon, which is absolutely the worst opening a youngster could play!

Well, maybe the Sveshnikov is worse.  But not much.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #86 - 03/13/12 at 01:14:15
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I'm not talking abiut the open games necessarily, though these are very good for producing open positions. I don't advacate just any QGD, only the Tarrasch, which produces, usually, an open position.

The Tarrasch is just about the only non-e5 defense anybody needs, up to 2100 or so.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #85 - 03/13/12 at 01:02:51
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/12/12 at 20:11:29:
Open games, if I understand correctly, refer to all opening systems and variations after 1. e4 e5. But an improving player might prefer to play a different set of openings than 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5 to learn how to play open positions. I remember seeing above that closed and semi-open openings such as the King's Indian, Grünfeld, Sicilian, French, etc. can result in open positions from a closed or semi-closed pawn structure in the initial opening moves, one can still learn to play open positions with these openings.


You don't understand correctly. 
Open games: 1. e4 e5. 
Closed games: 1. d4 d5. 
Semi-open games: 1. e4 (anything else)
Semi-closed games: 1. d4 (anything else)
Flank openings: All other openings. 
   
You seem to actually be including 1. d4 d5 as an open opening. And the King's Indian and Grunfeld are semi-closed, not semi-open. Just because they can get to certain types of positions doesn't mean they can be forced that way.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #84 - 03/13/12 at 00:21:27
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Markovich wrote on 03/12/12 at 23:48:50:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/12/12 at 20:11:29:
I think whilst it is important for players to learn to play open positions, the matter of opening choice or repertoire is a factor. Open games, if I understand correctly, refer to all opening systems and variations after 1. e4 e5. But an improving player might prefer to play a different set of openings than 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5 to learn how to play open positions. I remember seeing above that closed and semi-open openings such as the King's Indian, Grünfeld, Sicilian, French, etc. can result in open positions from a closed or semi-closed pawn structure in the initial opening moves, one can still learn to play open positions with these openings. If they play these openings regularly they will be practically forced to learn how to play open positions well to understand the correct timing of pawn breaks, etc., so I feel that opening choice and repertoire is a factor as well.


This is like saying that you can gain experience of analytic geometry while doing calculus. You can, but you don't need calculus to do analytic geometry, nor do you need to understsnd much at about semi-open positions to play good chess in 19th Century fashion.

Quote:

Also, regarding 1. e4 e5, one needs a defence against 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5. Most of those main defences are closed: Breyer, Zaitsev, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov, etc. So even a 1. e4 e5 player will need to play a closed position with much manoeuvring, like those positions that are obtained by those who play the French Winawer. Then why not allow the player to choose between Breyer, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov Defences against the Spanish, and playing the French, Sicilian, Caro-Kann, etc.


How many times have I said that this is not about systems, but about in what sort of play one should strive to gain experience, and how many times have you ignored it? Repertoires and systems are just not very important for weak players.

Do you have any students, or have you ever had? If not, I really cannot be bothered with trying to straighten out your misconceptions about chess coaching.


This sounds strange, but some classmates I had skipped univariable calculus during secondary education and learnt it on their own a few months before doing multivariable calculus in university and learning the rest of univariable calculus simultaneously. Yet somehow they did well in multivariable and got high marks. But that is another situation.

Types of positions concern the play that arise from them. If 1. e4 e5 gives general types of positions that are good for learning, why not 1. e4 c5 giving similar positions? If the matter is not about openings, then one can play any opening in order to learn a certain type of position without being restricted to one opening choice.

When I was in secondary school I used to volunteer to do some group lectures at the school chess club, but not often. I usually just talked for less than a half hour on how to play the White side of the closed Spanish, and some minimal opening theory. I do not know if everyone cared too much, but I know some 1400-1500 students tried to use some of those lines for their repertoires.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #83 - 03/12/12 at 23:48:50
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/12/12 at 20:11:29:
I think whilst it is important for players to learn to play open positions, the matter of opening choice or repertoire is a factor. Open games, if I understand correctly, refer to all opening systems and variations after 1. e4 e5. But an improving player might prefer to play a different set of openings than 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5 to learn how to play open positions. I remember seeing above that closed and semi-open openings such as the King's Indian, Grünfeld, Sicilian, French, etc. can result in open positions from a closed or semi-closed pawn structure in the initial opening moves, one can still learn to play open positions with these openings. If they play these openings regularly they will be practically forced to learn how to play open positions well to understand the correct timing of pawn breaks, etc., so I feel that opening choice and repertoire is a factor as well.


This is like saying that you can gain experience of analytic geometry while doing calculus. You can, but you don't need calculus to do analytic geometry, nor do you need to understsnd much at about semi-open positions to play good chess in 19th Century fashion.

Quote:

Also, regarding 1. e4 e5, one needs a defence against 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5. Most of those main defences are closed: Breyer, Zaitsev, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov, etc. So even a 1. e4 e5 player will need to play a closed position with much manoeuvring, like those positions that are obtained by those who play the French Winawer. Then why not allow the player to choose between Breyer, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov Defences against the Spanish, and playing the French, Sicilian, Caro-Kann, etc.


How many times have I said that this is not about systems, but about in what sort of play one should strive to gain experience, and how many times have you ignored it? Repertoires and systems are just not very important for weak players.

Do you have any students, or have you ever had? If not, I really cannot be bothered with trying to straighten out your misconceptions about chess coaching.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #82 - 03/12/12 at 23:10:04
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kylemeister wrote on 03/12/12 at 20:33:02:
The nature of the Breyer, Chigorin etc. doesn't much matter given that Black can choose, for example, the Open.  True, White can play e.g. an early d3, but to compare this to the Winawer seems a bit wide of the mark.  There is also of course 2...Nf6 ...


It was mentioned a few times previously that the Two Knights was a key opening to play for beginners, which is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6, so I inferred that if 1. e4 e5 players played the Two Knights, they would have to face the Spanish as well, in which case they would need to choose a main defence against the Spanish.
  

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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #81 - 03/12/12 at 20:55:30
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I'm thinking that if what Markovich says is true, and that semi-closed positions have a funny way of becoming open...aren't you going to learn how to play open positions from playing semi-closed ones?

Anyway I respect and somewhat sympathize with Markovich's views, but I think he's a bit extreme.  I do think that beginners should play fairly "normal" opening moves and not mess around too much with Alekhine's Defence, the Tango, Chigorin's Defence, lines where you put a pawn on f3 (or f6), etc.
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #80 - 03/12/12 at 20:33:02
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The nature of the Breyer, Chigorin etc. doesn't much matter given that Black can choose, for example, the Open.  True, White can play e.g. an early d3, but to compare this to the Winawer seems a bit wide of the mark.  There is also of course 2...Nf6 ...
  
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Re: best systems for improving players
Reply #79 - 03/12/12 at 20:11:29
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I think whilst it is important for players to learn to play open positions, the matter of opening choice or repertoire is a factor. Open games, if I understand correctly, refer to all opening systems and variations after 1. e4 e5. But an improving player might prefer to play a different set of openings than 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5 to learn how to play open positions. I remember seeing above that closed and semi-open openings such as the King's Indian, Grünfeld, Sicilian, French, etc. can result in open positions from a closed or semi-closed pawn structure in the initial opening moves, one can still learn to play open positions with these openings. If they play these openings regularly they will be practically forced to learn how to play open positions well to understand the correct timing of pawn breaks, etc., so I feel that opening choice and repertoire is a factor as well.

Also, regarding 1. e4 e5, one needs a defence against 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5. Most of those main defences are closed: Breyer, Zaitsev, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov, etc. So even a 1. e4 e5 player will need to play a closed position with much manoeuvring, like those positions that are obtained by those who play the French Winawer. Then why not allow the player to choose between Breyer, Karpov, Berlin, Chigorin, Kotov Defences against the Spanish, and playing the French, Sicilian, Caro-Kann, etc.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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