(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Nimzo and Benonis › QID › QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
(Moderator: proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order? (Read 40996 times)
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #12 - 04/18/12 at 02:20:35
Post Tools
Quote:
If you play 3. Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6, I'm wondering what lines you play against:

5.Qc2 - fashionable, but 5...Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 is a "safe" way to play and leads to the 4...Bb4+ Catalan.

and especially:

5.b3 Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 as here 7 Qc2 will lead to the same line of the Catalan.

In other words, if you play 3.g3 d5 4 Bg2 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 you have the same position against the Catalan as against the 4.g3 12232C36374200.  White has some possible deviations (Nbd2, responding to Bb4+ and then Be7 with Nc3) but nothing too terrible.

In his recent (excellent, IMO) DVD on the Queen's Indian and Catalan Tiviakov discusses these ideas.


5.Qc2 c5 and 5.b3 b5 (I might be a masochist for both of these)

I have defended the 4...Bb4+ Catalan as black for years and I have never liked that particular Catalan transposition as black, even more so since taking a very close look at it as part of writing my book.

Every time I think I've solved black's problems in the ...Ba6 approaches a new one springs up.
  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #11 - 04/16/12 at 15:53:50
Post Tools
Quote:
If you play 3. Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6, I'm wondering what lines you play against:

5.Qc2 - fashionable, but 5...Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 is a "safe" way to play and leads to the 4...Bb4+ Catalan.

and especially:

5.b3 Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 as here 7 Qc2 will lead to the same line of the Catalan.

In other words, if you play 3.g3 d5 4 Bg2 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 you have the same position against the Catalan as against the 4.g3 41707F65641101.  White has some possible deviations (Nbd2, responding to Bb4+ and then Be7 with Nc3) but nothing too terrible.

In his recent (excellent, IMO) DVD on the Queen's Indian and Catalan Tiviakov discusses these ideas.



1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. Qc2 c5 

and after 5.b3  i play 5..Bb7 I think this is quite good line.

  
2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #10 - 04/13/12 at 14:44:51
Post Tools
I thought the most standard recommendation against 2...b6 was 3. Nc3 Bb7 4. Qc2.  I recall a sort of classic quick bash by Alekhine with that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #9 - 04/13/12 at 11:51:57
Post Tools
Viking wrote on 04/11/12 at 20:58:44:
And how bad is actually 2..b6!? - an old Nimzowitch idea?


Quite bad, I opine, because White has f2-f3. I don't see how it would then resemble a Gruenfeld.

But to address the OP, my assumption had always been that 3.Nf3 is played by those willing to face the QID, 3.g3 by those unwilling. If 3...c5 is played, a Modern Benoni doesn't necessarily result, since White has 4.Nf3.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #8 - 04/12/12 at 14:59:43
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 04/12/12 at 10:58:57:
Quote:
Transposing to Benoni position with c5 is also possible.


Since 3.Nf3 is so much more popular than 3.g3 one wonders why the latter is rare - and the only explanation I can think of at the moment is that 3.Nf3 gives more and better options vs the Modern Benoni, so 3...c5 is likely to be black's best reply, and it also seems to score the best for black...


I suspect that a lot of Catalan players will meet 3. g3 c5 with 4.Nf3; not the most critical try for an advantage but perfectly playable.  For Black I'd recommend 4...cd 5.Nxd4 d5 immediately, the point being that White can't really play 6.cxd5? Qxd5 here.  So 6.Bg2 e5 followed by 7...d4 wherever the Knight moves is very dynamic and gives both sides their chances (Black's score in practice is excellent here).

Further reasons why 3...c5 is perhaps Black's best attempt in this move order.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Ex Member
*
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #7 - 04/12/12 at 11:50:28
Post Tools
If you play 3. Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6, I'm wondering what lines you play against:

5.Qc2 - fashionable, but 5...Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 is a "safe" way to play and leads to the 4...Bb4+ Catalan.

and especially:

5.b3 Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 as here 7 Qc2 will lead to the same line of the Catalan.

In other words, if you play 3.g3 d5 4 Bg2 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 you have the same position against the Catalan as against the 4.g3 QID.  White has some possible deviations (Nbd2, responding to Bb4+ and then Be7 with Nc3) but nothing too terrible.

In his recent (excellent, IMO) DVD on the Queen's Indian and Catalan Tiviakov discusses these ideas.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #6 - 04/12/12 at 10:58:57
Post Tools
Quote:
Transposing to Benoni position with c5 is also possible.


Since 3.Nf3 is so much more popular than 3.g3 one wonders why the latter is rare - and the only explanation I can think of at the moment is that 3.Nf3 gives more and better options vs the Modern Benoni, so 3...c5 is likely to be black's best reply, and it also seems to score the best for black...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021 and CCM
at ICCF 2023

Posts: 1839
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #5 - 04/12/12 at 09:48:43
Post Tools
The so called problem with 3 .. Bb4+ is that whites best is transposes to a mainline in Bogo Indian and that means that QID players needs to know both QID and Bogo Indian. While Bogo is not theory demanding, it usually leeds to differnet type of game than QID and the question is why not play Bogo Indian against 3 Nf3 as well.

I had the impression to most QID players transposed to Catalan with d5 in case of g3.

Tansposing to Benoni position with c5 is also possible.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Chessexplained
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 93
Location: Duisburg, Germany
Joined: 02/03/12
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #4 - 04/12/12 at 07:27:00
Post Tools
Viking wrote on 04/11/12 at 20:58:44:
And how bad is actually 2..b6!? - an old Nimzowitch idea?


This has recently been played by Ivan Sokolov a lot. It usually leads to a Grunfeld type of position though. 

An independent option worth considering is 3...c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 b5
This is somewhat risky, but will take many white players out of their comfort zone. It's maybe not so great against really top opposition known to be booked up, but you'll get a great position if white doesn't know exactly what to do.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #3 - 04/11/12 at 20:58:44
Post Tools
And how bad is actually 2..b6!? - an old Nimzowitch idea?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #2 - 04/11/12 at 20:35:36
Post Tools
Playing 1..e6 and 2..b6  - with the risk of entering the french and english defence
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #1 - 04/11/12 at 18:46:44
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 04/11/12 at 18:37:55:
Hi!
Question to peoples who like to play QI defence. What's your reaction on 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3!? Now 3..b6 is probably not so good and 3..d5 leads to Catalan. I don't like to play and learn Catalan, so is there any other good option for black?
Regards
E.

Obviously 3...c5 aiming for a Modern Benoni is a quite attractive option. And there's nothing wrong with 3...Bb4+, is there?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
04/11/12 at 18:37:55
Post Tools
Hi!
Question to peoples who like to play QI defence. What's your reaction on 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3!? Now 3..b6 is probably not so good and 3..d5 leads to Catalan. I don't like to play and learn Catalan, so is there any other good option for black?
Regards
E.
  
2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge