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Poll closed Question: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand Title Match?
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Anand by 2 or more    
  36 (37.1%)
Gelfand by 2 or more    
  1 (1.0%)
Anand by 1    
  41 (42.3%)
Gelfand by 1    
  9 (9.3%)
Anand in a Tie-break    
  4 (4.1%)
Gelfand in a Tie-break    
  5 (5.2%)
The match will be cancelled.    
  1 (1.0%)




Total votes: 97
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 05/08/12 at 15:52:16 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship? (Read 157635 times)
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #413 - 06/07/12 at 14:35:01
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #412 - 06/02/12 at 05:00:11
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There is another thread devoted to endgame tablebases and their uses.

I use them in correspondence, but I generally try to work out the endgames myself first.
  
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brabo
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #411 - 06/02/12 at 04:13:46
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/02/12 at 00:50:33:

Thanks for the link, brabo. I'm amazed you think most IMs will have anything to do with tablebases, though. I'd wager that fewer than one in ten Brit IMs has that site or a similar one bookmarked. In general, OTB players tend to find it more fun to guess, I think.

Possible. Personally I don't see the fun in guessing if you can easily know for sure.
I also thought that tablebases are a piece of the standard equipment for ambitious/strong players just like the megadatabase, the correspondence database, a few topengines, a laptop,... I use tablebases extensively to annotate my own games.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #410 - 06/02/12 at 03:34:33
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The Rf6+ trick is in most books on endgame. It was actually in Averbachs endgame primer I think. Certainly something a GM should know  Wink
That being said strange mistakes have happened in WC-matches under time-pressure before...
Actually in the endgame section a gave a similar position in the technical intermezzo of the Bacrot-Robson thread. Warning that this kind of endgame with the pawn on the 6th rank  is won for white if the black king is at a sufficient distance. 
Unfortunately I preceded it with the comment that most players would want to skip over it, since it belonged to basic endgame knowledge.  Huh
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #409 - 06/02/12 at 00:50:33
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>As I said upthread, the players shouldn't be trying to entertain; they should be fighting, and the fighting (ideally) creates the entertainment.

Ah, but what is 'fighting'? Sometimes 'fighting' is saving your energy for another day. Playing every game flat out isn't 'fighting' unless you also think it's your best strategy. Otherwise, it's back to Harlem.

As to what is good sport, in my view there's a large element of luck in this. If Anand had guessed the Grunfeld and had some poisonous prep ready, maybe we'd have got some great games. In football, one side playing really well doesn't always make great sport; great sport really has to be close. The tie-break was great sport, if you like - not great chess, but great sport.

Thanks for the link, brabo. I'm amazed you think most IMs will have anything to do with tablebases, though. I'd wager that fewer than one in ten Brit IMs has that site or a similar one bookmarked. In general, OTB players tend to find it more fun to guess, I think.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #408 - 06/02/12 at 00:44:17
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I don't know about that! It was a good thing you had that Rf6+ trick, wasn't it?

Still, I don't think we're disagreeing, really, and now you mention it, that doesn't look too hard. We had some line where we thought Rg4 at some stage was a terribly accurate move, somehow defending against some checks on the f-file, but I'm hanged if I can remember it now. In fact I have a nasty suspicion we may have played two Black moves in a row.....

I meant 61 Kg3 Kb7 62 Kg4 Rc5 in my theory below about Vancura, btw, not 62....Rf5.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #407 - 06/01/12 at 23:23:04
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/31/12 at 23:51:47:
Presumably Svidler's proposed ...Rb3 instead of Anand's ...Ra3 doesn't actually lose to c7 Kd7?; Rb8, does it, since Black can meet c7 with Rc3, which I suspect may well actually draw.


Confirmed tablebase draw.

IMJohnCox wrote on 05/31/12 at 23:51:47:

I don't think btw, based on some emails I exchanged with a GM over the last few days, that 61 Kg3 wins 'trivially'; it took us a day or two to sort it out, even assuming we have it right now. Maybe it depends what you call trivial.


Yes, you're right; triviality is in the eye of the beholder.

To me, 61. Kg3 Rh1 62. Kg4 Rg1+ 63. Kf5 Rf1+ 64. Kg6 Rg1+ 65. Kh7 Kd7 66. Rg8 Rf1 67. Kg7 Rg1 68. Kh8 Rf1 69. h7 Ke6 70. Kg7 Rg1+ 71. Kf8 Rf1+ 72. Ke8 Rb1 73. Rg6+ Kf5 74. Rf6+ Ke5 75. Rh6 Rb8+ 76. Kf7 Rb7+ 77. Kg6  +- (mate in 17) does not look that hard to find (without pressure, that is).
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #406 - 06/01/12 at 15:06:52
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I didn't see the rapids but I think Gelfands big chance to win was in the proper chess. The rapids anything can happen - might as well toss a coin and spare everyone the suffering.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #405 - 06/01/12 at 13:06:24
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This was not a contest where a jury determines the winner according to the quality of the players’ moves. Of course Gelfand had chances in the rapid games that he missed, since he was playing rapid games while Anand was playing almost at blitz speed. You cannot have it all, a winning position and much more time on the clock. You have to choose. And they both chose. Gelfand preferred to think longer and get good positions. Now people say that he stood better in several rapid games and some even claim he deserved to win. But this is all Gelfand got, these nice commets from some people. Anand got the title. And why did Anad win? Anand won because he won, as he himself told us in the press conference.
  
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #404 - 06/01/12 at 13:33:52
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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #403 - 06/01/12 at 12:32:34
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/31/12 at 23:28:11:
Gelfand went there and played the Grunfeld and the Sveshnikov, for God's sake. That's hardly the Queen's Gambit Declined.



#notgoodforsales  Wink


On your general point, however, I have to agree.  I thought it was rather odd - the great hoohah about what Gelfand said coming at the same time as so many people wanting to get chess recognised as a sport.

As anybody who's ever watched any knows that real sport is dull much of the time.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #402 - 06/01/12 at 10:55:04
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/31/12 at 23:28:11:
Goodness, I'm getting soooooo tired of all this whinging.


Thanks. A refreshing response.
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #401 - 06/01/12 at 10:11:21
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/31/12 at 23:28:11:
Goodness, I'm getting soooooo tired of all this whinging.

Gelfand went there and played the Grunfeld and the Sveshnikov, for God's sake. That's hardly the Queen's Gambit Declined.

Not only that, but when he was one up with five to play - just three Black draws away from becoming champion of the world - he STILL went with the Grunfeld (or KID/Benoni/whatever). Now OK, that was a terrible decision IMHO and one main reason he's not world champion today, but still, you can't say he played cynically: he absolutely didn't. I can't think of another player in history who wouldn't have gone with the QGD or similar in game eight (OK, maybe Bronstein).

As to the critics complaining about game 12 ending early, they need to get a grip. How many players would have had the courage and imagination to make Gelfand's positional pawn sacrifice in such a decisive game? None of the commentators even mentioned it as a possibility.

So Anand sacked it off early when he could have played a few more moves so that the draw was clear. So what? Jeez, celebrate what we had, why doncha? If you can't see what a fine game this was, it's not the players; it's you.

It's true that Anand is clearly suffering a crisis which he may or may not get through - one look at the videocam tells anyone who also saw him during the Kramnik match that. And that affected his play, but he too dug in, showed a lot of courage and did what champions do; when everything was going badly he still managed to find a way to win.

I don't remotely share the view that this was a terrible match. Both players came out with a lot of credit for me; Gelfand in particular played if anything with excessive gallantry; there's something of Carl Schlechter about him. Let's hope he doesn't starve in an attic.

People have to understand that this isn't the Harlem Globetrotters. Professional sport simply cannot work on the basis that the competitors factor into their decisions what the public wants to see. If they do the sport is diluted and cheapened. The fascination of watching sport is always to see the competitors using the strategies and tactics they think will give them the best chance of winning. If they're doing that and the public aesthetic isn't being satisfied, the answer is to change the rules. Criticising the players is puerile; it misses the entire point of sport.

I am always reminded on these occasions of the words of Alan Durban, a manager in days gone by of the football team Stoke City, then as now an excruciating side to watch. After obviously playing for and failing to achieve a turgid 0-0 draw, Durban was criticised in a press conference and famously replied, 'We are trying to stay in this division. If you want entertainment, go to the circus.'.

Durban was vilified by the press and public for this remark; Stoke achieved the lowest points total ever in the top flight at the time and were relegated, and Durban was sacked and never worked in football again. 

Still and all, he was right. Sport is entertainment indeed, but the fun doesn't consist in watching the players strive to entertain you.


I agree with the Harlem Globetrotters analogy. As I said upthread, the players shouldn't be trying to entertain; they should be fighting, and the fighting (ideally) creates the entertainment.

The problem I have with John's conception is, if you accept this view wholesale, on what basis can you distinguish good sport from bad sport? They're all trying to win, right? (except for some Italian footballers, but that's another story  Tongue)
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #400 - 06/01/12 at 07:56:33
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Grin Grin Grin (Alias I'm crying..)
  

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Re: Who will win the Anand-Gelfand World Championship?
Reply #399 - 06/01/12 at 13:35:45
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