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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense (Read 21137 times)
sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #34 - 07/08/12 at 00:16:43
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sloughter wrote on 07/07/12 at 16:20:01:
ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/12 at 17:20:36:
sloughter wrote on 07/06/12 at 17:03:56:
At a practical level Black has more ways to lose. 


I think this sounds vague to most of us. But to me it means something. It means that Black may have a specific route to equality or even advantage, but White sets Black problems in the interim, such that if Black doesn't follow or find that route - he's dead. 

But to show that, you'd have to demonstrate that Black has only a few ways to play and everything else loses horribly. 

But if that were true a lot more players would play this way!

By the way, SF was right...I don't see b4 anymore.

 
When I indicated that Black has a number of logical ways to lose here is one of them. I played this against Fritz 12 at 40/120 (The first two games it saced the pawn on e5). Here it makes just one small mistake and rapidly falls into a losing position:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 Bd6? (Both f6 & Nb4 are better---Black sees the battery & defends the pawn but this is a clear strategic error) 13.Nc3! (The reason that Bd6 is bad is that now Nb4 can be met with a3 &  Nxd3 can be met with Qxd3 avoiding the doubled pawns on the d-file) 13...f5 14.Qd1 & White is already better. Now Black's position just collapses so it is doubtful that if Fritz 12 can find no equalizing chances that Black has no equality here. Rb8 15.Bf1 (To meet Qc7 with g3/Bg2 hitting d5) Qc7 16.d3 Bd7 (Black is simply moving with no plans. The Bishop has no future here) 17.g3 Kg7? (A truely mysterious move---clearly Black has no way that Fritz can see to make active moves) 18.Bg2 Nxc3 19.bxc3 c5 20.f4! Rfe8 21.fxe5 Bxe5 22.Bf4 Bxf4 23.Nxf4 Rxe1ch 24.Qxe1 +/-


Two more variations show just how difficult it is for Black to equalize. In both variations Black plays thematic moves but is much worse quickly:

Again this was against Fritz 12 at 40/120

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 Nb4 13.Rxe5 Bd6 14.Re3 Nd5 15.Nc3 Nxe3 16.dxe3 Qc7 17.Kh1!! Now White is clearly better. If Black doesn't chop on h2, I intend to play Ng1 tactically defending the h2 pawn. 17...Bxh2? (Black has to allow the slower positional problems i.e. allow Ng1/Nge2 when the Knights should have a field day with the weak Queenside pawns; there is no attack by Black) 18.g3 Bxh3 (forced: on Bxg3 19.fxg3 Bxh3 20.g4 traps the Bishop) 19.Kxh2 & Black can't defend the dark squares +/-

The second try by Fritz 12 is no better:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 Nb4 13.Rxe5 Bd6 14.Re3 h5 15.Qe2 Nd5 16.Nc3 Nxe3 17.dxe3 Bxh3 18.gxh3 Nb7 19.Ne4 Nc5 20.Nxc5! Qg5ch?! 21.Kh1 Qxc5 22.f4 Rfd8 23.e4 Bc7 24.Be3 Qb4 25.c3 Qd6 26.Bc4 Qe7 27.e5 Bb6 28.Bxb6 axb6 29.f5 +-
  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #33 - 07/07/12 at 16:20:01
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/12 at 17:20:36:
sloughter wrote on 07/06/12 at 17:03:56:
At a practical level Black has more ways to lose. 


I think this sounds vague to most of us. But to me it means something. It means that Black may have a specific route to equality or even advantage, but White sets Black problems in the interim, such that if Black doesn't follow or find that route - he's dead. 

But to show that, you'd have to demonstrate that Black has only a few ways to play and everything else loses horribly. 

But if that were true a lot more players would play this way!

By the way, SF was right...I don't see b4 anymore.

 
When I indicated that Black has a number of logical ways to lose here is one of them. I played this against Fritz 12 at 40/120 (The first two games it saced the pawn on e5). Here it makes just one small mistake and rapidly falls into a losing position:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 Bd6? (Both f6 & Nb4 are better---Black sees the battery & defends the pawn but this is a clear strategic error) 13.Nc3! (The reason that Bd6 is bad is that now Nb4 can be met with a3 &  Nxd3 can be met with Qxd3 avoiding the doubled pawns on the d-file) 13...f5 14.Qd1 & White is already better. Now Black's position just collapses so it is doubtful that if Fritz 12 can find no equalizing chances that Black has no equality here. Rb8 15.Bf1 (To meet Qc7 with g3/Bg2 hitting d5) Qc7 16.d3 Bd7 (Black is simply moving with no plans. The Bishop has no future here) 17.g3 Kg7? (A truely mysterious move---clearly Black has no way that Fritz can see to make active moves) 18.Bg2 Nxc3 19.bxc3 c5 20.f4! Rfe8 21.fxe5 Bxe5 22.Bf4 Bxf4 23.Nxf4 Rxe1ch 24.Qxe1 +/-

  
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micawber
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #32 - 07/06/12 at 17:46:26
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First of all I dont see that the "new move 11.Re1" really changes the situation (except in a line were Black willingly plays a string of bad moves).
Secondly I would point out that the position after White's 10th move is more usually reached after 
9.Bd3,0-0 10.0-0
Black can certainly reply 10...g6 when after 11.Re1
I would consider both 11...Nd5 12.Nh3,Bd6 (or even the somewhat speculative 12....Nb4)  and 11....Ng4.
Or Black can follow in Onichucks footsteps and play 10...h6
with a fully acceptable game.

PM. I never argued Black was better in the 8.Qf3 lines.
But he can get a full share of the fun in an unbalanced position.

  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #31 - 07/06/12 at 17:20:36
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sloughter wrote on 07/06/12 at 17:03:56:
At a practical level Black has more ways to lose. 


I think this sounds vague to most of us. But to me it means something. It means that Black may have a specific route to equality or even advantage, but White sets Black problems in the interim, such that if Black doesn't follow or find that route - he's dead. 

But to show that, you'd have to demonstrate that Black has only a few ways to play and everything else loses horribly. 

But if that were true a lot more players would play this way!

By the way, SF was right...I don't see b4 anymore.
  
"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #30 - 07/06/12 at 17:03:56
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Markovich wrote on 07/06/12 at 00:25:35:
sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.


Until now Black had better prospects i.e. more winning chances than losing chances. Here we see a reversal in fortunes. At a practical level Black has more ways to lose. Take the following position that involves an attempted trap by Black:

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 f5?! 13.Rxe5 g5 14.Rxf5! (Bxf5? Nc4!) Bxf5 15.Bxf5 +/-
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #29 - 07/06/12 at 15:42:43
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Markovich wrote on 07/06/12 at 00:25:35:
sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.


The following variation is not forced but does suggest that White might restrain the pawn roller tactically e.g.

8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 f6 13.Be4 g5 14.Bf5 Bxf5 15.Qxf5 Qc8 16.Qxc8 Raxc8 17.f3 with perhaps a slight plus. It seems that Black may have to play carefully to equalize.
  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #28 - 07/06/12 at 01:54:57
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sloughter wrote on 07/06/12 at 01:41:37:
Markovich wrote on 07/06/12 at 00:25:35:
sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.


12...Nb4 13.Re1 Nxd3 14.cxd3 & I would prefer to play White.


Maybe White should try 11.Re1 Nd5 12.Nh3 Bd6 13.Nc3 f5 14.Qd1 & White has a playable Steinitz Defense where White may be a little better than the main lines.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #27 - 07/06/12 at 01:41:37
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Markovich wrote on 07/06/12 at 00:25:35:
sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.


12...Nb4 13.Re1 Nxd3 14.cxd3 & I would prefer to play White.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #26 - 07/06/12 at 01:35:58
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Markovich wrote on 07/06/12 at 00:25:35:
sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.


No other lines of the 8...Be7 lines look very good i.e. they equalize at best The burden was on White to demonstrate equality which is a clear bust of the line. Now that White has decent play we can see if either side can improve. I will address your line after additional analysis.
  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #25 - 07/06/12 at 01:23:46
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/05/12 at 22:20:32:
That didn't answer the question.
.

c3 looks dubious so 8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O Bg4 10.Bxc6ch Kf8 11.Bxa8 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 h6 13.Ne4 Nc6 14.d3 Nd4 15.Bd1 How does Black make progress?
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #24 - 07/06/12 at 00:25:35
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sloughter, no one has claimed that 8.Qf3 loses, only that Black's resources are adequate. Nothing that you have just said contradicts that. But also, after 8...Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bd3 g6 11.Nc3 Nd5 12 Nh3, I would consider 12...Nb4.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #23 - 07/05/12 at 22:20:32
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That didn't answer the question.
  
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sloughter
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #22 - 07/05/12 at 21:37:07
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/05/12 at 18:56:33:
Sloughter, when you take a step back, which side would you rather play if money were riding on the result, and why?


I prefer relevant analysis to money.
  
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Re: C58: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #21 - 07/05/12 at 19:54:04
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It seems that sloughter has quietly given up on 8.Qf3 Be7 9.b4, as in his original post. 



sloughter wrote on 06/06/12 at 00:21:33:
Post members here and on chess.com have argued that in the main line of the 4.Ng5 variation that White must fight to equalize after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3---The general belief is that after 8...Be7! that White does pretty poorly after 9.Be2 & Bd3 looks drawish. Other variations (h6, Rb8 and Qc7) than 8...Be7 have been dealt with elsewhere

There is one idea that hasn't been tried---a transposition to an Evans Gambit i.e. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.b4! Bxb4 10.Bxc6ch Nxd6 11.Qxc6ch Bd7 12.Qc4 Qe7 13.c3 Bd6 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4

In this unbalanced position White has a protected passed pawn and Black the Bishops
  
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sloughter
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Re: New try main line Two Knights Defense
Reply #20 - 07/05/12 at 19:04:20
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sloughter wrote on 07/05/12 at 18:29:17:
mangler wrote on 06/08/12 at 00:56:49:
Hope your computer is fixed soon. PC problems are no fun.

After 17 Kd1, Fritz gives 17...Ne3 as mate in 8. And if Black can't find the mate, then he has other moves like 17...Qb6 or 17...Qd7 (instead of your 17...Bc4) that leave Black with a +4 advantage.


Got my Fritz 12 up and running. Just when I thought every reasonable try had been exhausted, a major one shows up. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O Bg4 (O-O will be dealt with next) 10.Bxc6ch Kf8 11.Bxa8 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 h6 13.Ne4 Nc6 14.c3 f5 15.Ng3 g6 & there are a lot of candidate moves e.g. 16.Rd1, Re1, h3, Nd2 or b4.


The next variation is: 8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 g6 (To deny Ne4/Ng3/Nf5) 11.Nc3 Nd5 12.Nh3 f5 13.Qd1 & we have a playable variation of the Steinitz Defense e.g. 13...g5 14.f3 or 13...Rb8 14.Be2 or 13...f4 14.Ne4 Bxh3 15.gxf3 & White is okay.

The next variation is 8.Qf3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Bd3 h6 
11.Ne4 Nd5 12.Ng3 Nb4 13.Re1 Nxd3 14.cxd3 With chances for both sides.
  
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