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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern (Read 42907 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #25 - 02/20/22 at 02:59:39
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5

I have a few books that cover this.
  • Schiller (1990) Janowski Indian Defence, 58 pages
  • Yrjölä/Tella (2001) An Explosive Chess Opening Repertoire for Black, pages 240-252
  • Cherniaev/Prokuronov (2011) The New Old Indian, pages 99-107

4.f3 e5 5.e4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Be6
Suba - V.Georgiev, Balaguer op 1997 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=1215683
(or 6...Nc6 first and then 7...Be6) This is game 21 in Cherniaev/Prokuronov. All three books consider black has enough counterplay in this line.

4.g3 c6 5.Bg2 g6 6.e4 Be6
Ligterink - Mestel, Marbella zt 1982 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=2340144
Schiller's main line against 4.g3, and also his game 4. Yrjölä/Tella skip it (4...e5!). Cherniaev/Prokuronov have this in a note with 4...c6!?, saying "this doesn't have to be fatal for him".

4.g3 e5 5.Bg2 Nc6 6.d5 Nd4 7.e4 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nge2 c5
Piket - I.Sokolov, Donner mem Amsterdam 1996 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=1391380
A difference of opinion here as Yrjölä/Tella give 4...e5! and 9...c5!, and give more analysis of this game. But Cherniaev/Prokuronov merely say 9...c5 is "an alternative" and offer the improvement 14.b3! +=.

4.g3 e5 5.Bg2 Nc6 6.d5 Nd4 7.e4 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nge2 Nxe2
G.Andruet - M.Benoit, Val Maubuee 1990 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=2103772
Another difference of opinion as Yrjölä/Tella dismiss this with 12.f5! +/-. But Cherniaev/Prokuronov give this as their main game with 4.g3 and annotate 12.f5?!. After 16...Ng4 they say "Black has excellent prospects."

"Alekhine's 4.g3 is a tough nut to crack and seems to give White slightly the better chances." - Cherniaev/Prokuronov

"4.Nf3 This move, simply developing a piece, seems to be White's strongest option." - Yrjölä/Tella
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #24 - 02/19/22 at 21:35:11
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/19/22 at 20:37:58:
1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.d4 Bf5 Might not even be a decent attempt at an Nf6+Bf5 setup for black. White can try an f3+e4 based reply and this would at least be a significant option; potentially also theoretically troubling.

Aside from 4. f3, another old book move which has been given as favorable for White is 4. g3.

(Random fact:  3...Bf5 is the subject of a book by the late Eric Schiller.  Originally it repeatedly [including on the front cover] gave the moves as 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bf5.)
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #23 - 02/19/22 at 20:37:58
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Hello.

Come to think of it...

1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.d4 Bf5 Might not even be a decent attempt at an Nf6+Bf5 setup for black. White can try an f3+e4 based reply and this would at least be a significant option; potentially also theoretically troubling. The whole way of developing is something known more from the fianchetto KID and 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bf5. In both cases white has already played Nf3, so white is somewhat less flexible there.

The more I think about it, the more annoying 1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 seems as well. You would think 3...g6 could be played with the thought of 4.d4 Bf5 happening. This would enter the above 1.d4 variation. White can actually go 1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 g6 4.e4 though. By already having a knight on f3 white can immediately go 4...c5 5.d4 or 4...e5 5.d4. That's gonna be an accelerated dragon or the same but without e-pawn. At the same time white is staking claim in the centre and thus obviously 4...Bg7 5.d4 is a King's Indian transposition. What could be tried is 4...Bg4 but it feels odd. Simply 5.d4 Nc6 6.Be2!? Bxf3 7.Bxf3 e5 8.d5 Nd4 and it looks like a position from 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.e4 Bg4 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nd4 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 only black has a knight on f6 instead of a bishop on g7. This seems off to me. I don't think it's nearly as good for black to have the knight developed.

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #22 - 02/16/22 at 03:34:53
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Hello.

I've had the relative pleasure of having Grünfeld playing teammates sit and discuss Anti-Grünfeld from the English Opening for two hours in the car ride to an away match. They seemed to think it was really annoying their opening wouldn't just work as normal against 1.c4 as well Grin

1...d6, 2...Nf6 and 3...Bf5 could be tried from black perhaps. Other than that I also don't really see any big point behind 1.c4 d6 over 1.c4 g6 or 1.c5 e5)

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #21 - 02/15/22 at 03:33:41
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/13/22 at 23:33:08:
1.c4 I have no clear preference.

1.c4 g6 2.Nc3 c5 is a good move order for the Symmetrical English. Many whites use 1.c4 intending a later d2-d4 while avoiding certain defenses (e.g. the Grunfeld), so you might be unlikely to see specifically 1.c4 g6 2.d4.

I don't understand 1.c4 d6 at all (nor 1.c4 Nc6 for that matter). Black gives white information without getting any in return. Might as well play 1...e5.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #20 - 02/13/22 at 23:33:08
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Hi.

When it comes to 1.d4 my philosophy has more or less been to go 1...d6. Pretty much even if I was dead set on continuing 2...g6 irregardless of white's move. The reasoning is that hopefully white wastes a few minutes thinking about 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5, 1.d4 d6 2.Nf3 Bg4 or even recalling how to put pressure on 1.d4 d6 2.e4 e5. I haven't found 1.d4 g6 to provoke similar considerations. White will just look for two seconds, see swiftly that 1...g6 changes little in regards to the centre, and reply swiftly.

When it comes to 1.e4 I split about evenly between 1.e4 d6 and 1.e4 g6. It seems to me like it makes it ever so slightly more annoying to go through my games for prospective opponents that way Grin

1.c4 I have no clear preference. What I will say is 1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 e5 sees white with decent options beside 3.d4; meaning going for an early e5 may not do as much as against 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5. Slightly annoying is also that 1.c4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.e4 avoids the specific position after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.c4 e5. I have no amazing solution for that; yet it is mainly a concern for people (not so many to be fair) who rely on 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.c4 e5 and not KID or Tiger's Averbach... (4.Nf3/4.Nc3 usually and black replying with 4...e5).

As a sidenote: To me the less talked about choice between 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 or 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 seems also important. Being able to play 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.c4 e5 is a bit of a well tucked away secret advantage of 2...d6. As others have pointed out 2...Bg7 has some upsides as well with regards to what subsystems are available to black though. Give and take. No Norwegian variation (1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6) from either Undecided

Have a nice day.
  
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picasso911
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #19 - 06/27/17 at 13:15:23
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The appereantly small differences between the Modern (1...g6) and the Pirc (1...d6) move-order sometimes can possibly change the whole type of game, so it's important to adjust all these varied paths to your repertoire choices.

Therefore, I try to emphasize a few (and to some extent already mentioned) points, some of them seem to carry weight, some are not so critical.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7

Of course the main advantage of this move-order is the flexibily of Black's d-pawn as well as his King's Knight sitting on g8.
Thus, against White's minor tries like 3.f4, 3.Be3, 3.h4 Black's immediate 3...d5 often is a very valid option and after 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 (or 4.Bg5) and 5.Qd2 Black prevents the exchange of dark-squared bishops for the time being by omniting ...N(g)f6.

The most obvious drawback in this move-order is White's opportunity to reach the King's Indian with 3.c4. In addition to this, White also can opt for a quieter 3.c3 as he's still not commited to 3.Nc3 like in the Pirc.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6

Of course, most of the points mentioned above now count the other way round as Black prevents the KID and 3.c3-setups (3.Bd3 can now be met by 3...e5 4.c3 d5!). Moreover, in some Pirc lines like 4.Be3, Black may delay ...Bg7 with 4...c6 so a future Bh6 Bxh6 would save an important tempo. Having said that, Black cannot prevent White's Be3/Qd2/Bh6-stuff and loses a (sometimes not so important) tempo, if he ever plays ...d5.

Summarized, in the 1...g6-move-order White generally can do whatever he likes most in the center, in return Black's setup retains as much flexibility as possible.
The Pirc-move-order restrains White's options in the center but also Black's opportunities a little bit.

  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #18 - 04/25/15 at 04:02:55
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exigentsky wrote on 11/17/12 at 01:05:45:
What about 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 a6 if I intend to play a6 systems vs the Dragon setup or Austrian attack?  Are there any theoretical problems with this move order?


This move order seems to work well against a standard Austrian Attack after 4. f4 d5. I, too, am wondering if there's any reason not to play this way, since I'm willing to play 3...c5 after 3. c4.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #17 - 11/21/12 at 15:14:38
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Not to mention 4...e5 and assorted others.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #16 - 11/21/12 at 13:14:01
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Without Nf6 it's not a KID. Black can play the Averbakh system. Included in all books on the Modern.

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 (or 4...Nd7) 5.d5 Nd4 (or 5.Be3 e5 6.d5 Nce7).
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #15 - 11/21/12 at 12:18:41
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TN wrote on 11/15/12 at 13:49:48:
If you meet 1.e4 with the Pirc then it doesn't matter whether you play 1...d6 or 1...g6 as after 1.d4 g6 2.e4 you can play 2...d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 to transpose to a Pirc, unless White plays 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3/3...Nf6 4.Bd3 which may be a slightly improved Pirc/Modern for White (after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.f4 the move 3...c5 is a strong reply).

Just want to add that there is 3.c4, and instead of the Pirc it's now the King's Indian that is in play. If you want to play the Pirc but not the King's Indian, you need a move order that prevents c4.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #14 - 11/21/12 at 12:10:36
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 11/21/12 at 01:45:54:
exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


If you start with d6 it's called a Pirc and if you start with g6 it's a Modern, the two are different openings. Most of the time they transpose, and for a very long time were under the same heading in MCO. 

There are advantages and disadvantages with both openings, including surprise value, that's why people don't always use one or the other. This is fairly common in chess openings... 
 


Well, not really. 
More characterised by when the KN comes out. 
Held back for flexibility: Modern.
d6 then Nf6 straight up, Pirc.
One can play the Modern sometimes via 1 d4 d6 2 e4 g6 for example and hold back the left horse. As TN already said. 
It's deja vu again.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #13 - 11/21/12 at 01:45:54
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exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


If you start with d6 it's called a Pirc and if you start with g6 it's a Modern, the two are different openings. Most of the time they transpose, and for a very long time were under the same heading in MCO. 

There are advantages and disadvantages with both openings, including surprise value, that's why people don't always use one or the other. This is fairly common in chess openings... 
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #12 - 11/17/12 at 01:05:45
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What about 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 a6 if I intend to play a6 systems vs the Dragon setup or Austrian attack?  Are there any theoretical problems with this move order?
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #11 - 11/15/12 at 21:47:16
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If White plays 1.e4, I see no difference at all, assuming you want to end up with ...d6 and ...g6 anyway. You can even hope for small mistakes like 1.e4 d6 2.f4?! d5.

If White plays 1.d4, there is perhaps a 0.0001 difference in favour of 1...d6 rather than 1...g6:
- against 1.d4 g6, White can try to play an improved Pirc without e4, with straightforward Nc3-Be3-Qd2-000. He can also launch a quick h4-h5. However, such plans require great versatility from a d4 player, and you shouldn't face them often.
- for White, 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 can be more unpleasant  than 1.d4 g6 2.c4 d6.

If White plays 1.c4, there is no risk of an accelerated pirc and you can play what you want. If you were a Grunfeld player, White could smell a rat  after 1.c4 g6 and play 2.e4, after which you reply 2...e5 and everybody is zugzwanged.
  
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