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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 351775 times)
MartinC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #297 - 05/08/13 at 13:10:39
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Well the strong original doubts were when it was one tournament. That could very easily have been a statistical fluke.

With it seemingly continuing like this it clearly wasn't that. The only problem is that no one has even really produced a plausible method for him to be using, let alone concrete evidence.

Mind you those two tournament results aren't convincing evidence of computer cheating. How would a halfway reasonable player 'only' score 5.5/9 against 2340 with a computer to help?

You do have to be try and be consistent and logical about it.
  
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Chessexplained
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #296 - 05/08/13 at 12:24:02
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I really think it is remarkable that some people still express doubts about the cheating by Ivanov. How clear do you want it to be? The guy plays one tournament on a 2600 level, then the next on 2000.

http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calculations.phtml?idnumber=2903741&rating_pe...

Check the tournament where he lost 45 points - No player performs like that who is able to beat GMs in a row. Of course even GMs can lose to amateurs on a bad day, but they won't play a 1900 performance over a whole tournament.
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #295 - 05/08/13 at 12:17:27
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Here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Yla2yn_34&hd=1

Chess Cheating - Episode 4: A New Hope
by Valeri Lilov

Episode four with some new reports on the cheating in chess. First true victory for the chess masters against cheating!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr0J8S...
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7VvvR...
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhfCUd...

PGN file with the latest games:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/12/16/3376882/IvanovLatest.pgn

Roll Eyes
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #294 - 05/08/13 at 11:47:16
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TalJechin wrote on 05/08/13 at 09:27:19:
Come on Vass, it's still only circumstantial and you know it.

Kramnik once got mated out of the blue with Qh7# - that's no proof that he's been using an engine ever since...

A young Rubinstein got squashed by Salwe, but only a year later he got a rematch and squashed him back - proof of time travel and engine use, or could training actually make someone a better player?  Roll Eyes


Yes, I agree.
But nevertheless...
Only three years after this game and the guy is on a par with the Houdini engine?!  Shocked
Over 3200 ELO points as per http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/rating_list_all.html for example.
I can't even imagine what would happen in the next three years..
Carlsen, please step aside!
  
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fling
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #293 - 05/08/13 at 11:37:38
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tony37 wrote on 05/07/13 at 20:43:48:
...which would imply he is by far the strongest chess player on earth let's assume there's a very small chance this is true, then I still think the chance that I am Santa Claus is a lot higher than that


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
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fling
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #292 - 05/08/13 at 11:37:02
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Scarblac wrote on 05/08/13 at 09:44:19:

The point is that when he plays well, his moves are extremely similar to the moves of Houdini. Much more so than the moves of the top players. Even when Houdini makes bad moves.


Exactly! Well put.

Still, the point that he plays very strong moves consistently all of a sudden is very suspicious, considering his previous (steady) level. It's not like an occasional fluke win against a GM in poor form.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #291 - 05/08/13 at 09:44:19
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TalJechin wrote on 05/08/13 at 09:27:19:
Come on Vass, it's still only circumstantial and you know it.

Kramnik once got mated out of the blue with Qh7# - that's no proof that he's been using an engine ever since...

A young Rubinstein got squashed by Salwe, but only a year later he got a rematch and squashed him back - proof of time travel and engine use, or could training actually make someone a better player?  Roll Eyes

The point isn't that he isn't consistent, the point isn't even that he's playing much stronger than you would expect him to.

The point is that when he plays well, his moves are extremely similar to the moves of Houdini. Much more so than the moves of the top players. Even when Houdini makes bad moves.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #290 - 05/08/13 at 09:27:19
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Come on Vass, it's still only circumstantial and you know it.

Kramnik once got mated out of the blue with Qh7# - that's no proof that he's been using an engine ever since...

A young Rubinstein got squashed by Salwe, but only a year later he got a rematch and squashed him back - proof of time travel and engine use, or could training actually make someone a better player?  Roll Eyes
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #289 - 05/08/13 at 07:34:22
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Just three years before the Zadar Open: (source: Chessbase Megabase)



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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #288 - 05/08/13 at 07:03:08
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Dink Heckler wrote on 05/08/13 at 06:54:23:
'Innocent until proven guilty' is not a good rule of thumb at all....it's a jurisprudential tenet in the context of criminal proceedings, not a rule to live by. 

A better rule of thumb would be 'keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out'. Occam's Razor isn't a bad one either...


"If the witch floats she should be burned at the stake, if she drowns she was innocent"
is another outdated court practice...

As for Occam, I agree and let me quote myself: "The conclusion that he is a strong player would be more obvious than that he's in telepathic contact with a chess engine."
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #287 - 05/08/13 at 06:54:23
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'Innocent until proven guilty' is not a good rule of thumb at all....it's a jurisprudential tenet in the context of criminal proceedings, not a rule to live by. 

A better rule of thumb would be 'keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out'. Occam's Razor isn't a bad one either...
  
'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #286 - 05/08/13 at 06:10:30
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tony37 wrote on 05/07/13 at 20:43:48:
TalJechin wrote on 05/07/13 at 17:21:10:


As I see it, the statistics only show that he is generally playing strong moves. The conclusion that he is a strong player would be more obvious than that he's in telepathic contact with a chess engine.

which would imply he is by far the strongest chess player on earth
let's assume there's a very small chance this is true, then I still think the chance that I am Santa Claus is a lot higher than that


Well, "innocent until proven guilty" is a good rule of thumb imo. There are real people in the world who are capable of things that seem completely impossible to most of us, e.g: memorising Pi to 50000 decimals, and if you've seen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Lee's_Superhumans, there are much stranger human abilities than that...

And with a whole generation that's grown up studying chess with computers, is it really so unlikely that it might rub off on someone with perhaps a unique predisposition for algorithmic thinking?
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #285 - 05/07/13 at 21:09:34
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Does his performance still depend on the position being public, or does he play this will even in normal tournament stituations?
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #284 - 05/07/13 at 20:43:48
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TalJechin wrote on 05/07/13 at 17:21:10:


As I see it, the statistics only show that he is generally playing strong moves. The conclusion that he is a strong player would be more obvious than that he's in telepathic contact with a chess engine.

which would imply he is by far the strongest chess player on earth
let's assume there's a very small chance this is true, then I still think the chance that I am Santa Claus is a lot higher than that
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #283 - 05/07/13 at 17:48:55
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Thing is, he's not just playing strong moves. Even in positions where humans usually choose better moves than a computer, he still has a high match-up rate with an engine. Somehow or another, he's plagiarizing a computer. The question for me is how?

Is proof that he has a high match-up rate with an engine enough proof to ban him from FIDE for cheating? And if so, what should that threshold be? As of now, it still feels a bit like a witch-hunt until we have a way to say incontrovertibly that he is cheating and that anybody with a similar match-up rate would also be cheating, even if his name was Magnus Carlsen.
  
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