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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 351725 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #357 - 06/03/13 at 21:56:19
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kylemeister wrote on 06/03/13 at 20:35:53:
A couple of thoughts on that latest video:

--again some overstatement (you can't calculate Ne4 and g3 with two minutes on your clock).
--Lilov's way of talking reminds me of the term "pressure of speech."


I haven't seen the video as I'm at work, but I don't think that Lilov has done the chess world any kind of service with his prior videos.  At least not in the way they're presented--they could have been much better and stuck to the facts.

The longer this goes on, the stranger it gets.  I'm about 99.9999% sure he's cheating, but of course I have no idea how.   
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #356 - 06/03/13 at 20:35:53
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A couple of thoughts on that latest video:

--again some overstatement (you can't calculate Ne4 and g3 with two minutes on your clock).
--Lilov's way of talking reminds me of the term "pressure of speech."
  
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RdC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #355 - 06/03/13 at 20:32:56
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/03/13 at 19:08:26:
Well, he's back in the news: http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4009997/the-show-goes-on-ivanov-i....

Anyone know if he still maintains his performances when they do NOT broadcast the games?  


He was able to win a rapid play event which wasn't broadcast as far as anyone is aware.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #354 - 06/03/13 at 19:08:26
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Well, he's back in the news: http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4009997/the-show-goes-on-ivanov-i....

Anyone know if he still maintains his performances when they do NOT broadcast the games?  It was a few tournaments ago, but one of the most damning things about the first incident was when the broadcast of games was stopped in the last round, he fell apart like a typical 2100 player against a GM.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #353 - 05/17/13 at 15:37:40
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Restraint of trade or some such I think? Maybe not so very serious in this case as he wasn't making money from it all, but imagine similar with a chess professional, or even an ameteur capable of winning non trivial money.
(Or one who had done so and then had it stripped.).

Obviously if he's been offensive enough to earn a (presumably temporary) ban on those grounds then its much safer as you've got rules, precedent etc Smiley Its when you get to banning people for cheating that its a touch scary.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #352 - 05/17/13 at 15:19:20
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MartinC wrote on 05/17/13 at 12:26:51:
Well it was clearly just getting impossible to actually run a tournament with him in so some pragmatic sense.

Objectively though, this really is getting into rather dangerous territory. Banning people without a really reliable, concrete case against them?

You'll get hauled up in court and very likely lose with it. Quite rightly too really. This is one thing that a reliable, universally agreed, statistical test might give you a chance to defend against.


Well, it's hardly a human right to be allowed to play a chess tournament - if he was banned from the tms for having shown offensive behaviour, I think most players would support it, so ostentatiously cheating should be on the same level. 

One can compare with cafés that don't allow people with baby carriages - parents with whiny screaming kids go to the newspapers and complain, but so far I haven't seen anything about them winning any court case...
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #351 - 05/17/13 at 12:32:09
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MartinC wrote on 05/17/13 at 12:26:51:
Well it was clearly just getting impossible to actually run a tournament with him in so some pragmatic sense.

Objectively though, this really is getting into rather dangerous territory. Banning people without a really reliable, concrete case against them?

You'll get hauled up in court and very likely lose with it. Quite rightly too really. This is one thing that a reliable, universally agreed, statistical test might give you a chance to defend against.

I don't know the details, but I think the ethics commission of the national federation took this decision, because of the bad language of "the hero". It's a temporary decision, of course...and would not solve the case at all.  Embarrassed
  
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MartinC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #350 - 05/17/13 at 12:26:51
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Well it was clearly just getting impossible to actually run a tournament with him in so some pragmatic sense.

Objectively though, this really is getting into rather dangerous territory. Banning people without a really reliable, concrete case against them?

You'll get hauled up in court and very likely lose with it. Quite rightly too really. This is one thing that a reliable, universally agreed, statistical test might give you a chance to defend against.
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #349 - 05/17/13 at 11:47:38
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Valeri Lilov
"Today, I was reminded by Arthur Kogan to share the official information that the famous cheater Borislav Ivanov will not be allowed to participate in the summer open tournaments in Bulgaria. There were many speculations about this, but a few days ago it was officially anounced that the comission of our federation has taken this serious decision. It seems, there will be some good time to play fair chess this summer! Smiley"

source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/141553385913043/

A light in the dark..  Wink
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #348 - 05/16/13 at 07:58:20
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RdC wrote on 05/16/13 at 07:55:22:
Vass wrote on 05/16/13 at 07:50:13:

What if I (as an amateur) win against two GMs in a row just by accident (or on account of my deep preparation taken from my correspondence chess analyses)? Would they suspect me in cheating? Would they complain to the organizers?


There's at least one GM, who admittedly has a reputation for making complaints, who is liable to accuse anyone below IM standard who beats him as cheating. So far he's just been ignored.

Smiley

But then, could you ignore all the complaints (from other GMs)? What is the critical amount of the complaints that matters?  Huh
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #347 - 05/16/13 at 07:55:22
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Vass wrote on 05/16/13 at 07:50:13:

What if I (as an amateur) win against two GMs in a row just by accident (or on account of my deep preparation taken from my correspondence chess analyses)? Would they suspect me in cheating? Would they complain to the organizers?


There's at least one GM, who admittedly has a reputation for making complaints, who is liable to accuse anyone below IM standard who beats him as cheating. So far he's just been ignored.
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #346 - 05/16/13 at 07:50:13
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If you are to think deep about the legal rights of all the involved..it turns out this is a very complicated matter.
As long as there are no authorities or regulations to deal with such cases, no other than a real mess would happen..
Let's say I'm an amateur in chess and I go for a weekend tournament just to play chess for fun. I pay the fee and enter the open tournament. Then I have to play against this (or other) man in the first round. What to do? Play...or complain to the organizers? On what ground? Suspicions?.. Do I have to buy an electronic set in order to catch a possible fraud?
Or the other case: I'm a professional in chess and I enter an open big tournament which takes time (let's say a week). I expect to win this tournament or at least to be in the first three.. And then I have the misfortune to meet this guy in the 7th round.. What to do?  Huh
As per the tournament organizers: they call their tournament "open".. But if they don't allow him to participate, is it really "open"? Or closed? Or "just for friends"?
What if I (as an amateur) win against two GMs in a row just by accident (or on account of my deep preparation taken from my correspondence chess analyses)? Would they suspect me in cheating? Would they complain to the organizers? Would I be let to play in the next tournament because of such suspicions?
And if I wouldn't, can I take my lawyer's advice and bring this case to court pleading discrimination?  Huh
Do I have to continue?..
As you can see, nothing is easy as it seems. And I think all sides lose in this case.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #345 - 05/16/13 at 07:21:43
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TalJechin wrote on 05/16/13 at 06:39:37:

Would it be so hard to arrange a collection among the players to buy the equipment? 

It turns out this is the only solution to the problem..
Poor chess..if we're going to make it this way!

TalJechin wrote on 05/16/13 at 06:39:37:

The most surprising thing to me is that the organisers still allow him to play if they're so sure he's cheating. They could just add "We reserve the right to refuse entry to the tournament for players with an unsportsmanlike reputation" to the tournament invites...

The last tournament organizers were forced to allow him to participate in their tournament, because this tournament was carried out with the help of the national federation.
First was this clause: "Only the chess players who have been approved by the organizers and have paid the participation fee are allowed to take part in the tournament." as per http://old-capital-2013.chessmix.com/
Then there was a lawyer's advice and so on..
So that's why the organizers reacted with the clause: "If a player has more than two unplayed games did not participates in the distribution of prizes!" (same source).
It's complicated, don't you think?  Cheesy
Even the final standings list is different (first time I see such a case). Look here:
http://old-capital-2013.chessmix.com/standings.html
...and then here:
http://www.chessbg.com/chessbg_files/calendar/download/results/standings_stara_s...

Shocked
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #344 - 05/16/13 at 06:39:37
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Vass wrote on 05/15/13 at 22:03:14:
Keano wrote on 05/15/13 at 20:24:02:
You'd think they would do something alright if he is indeed cheating. I'm impressed this thread is still going.

And what exactly are you suggesting?

Buy a special electronic set to catch him? (Besides, are you going to do it personally? You know, all this...buying and catching..)


Which court is authorized to judge such special cases?
Where are the authorities that can deal with it?



Would it be so hard to arrange a collection among the players to buy the equipment? 

The most surprising thing to me is that the organisers still allow him to play if they're so sure he's cheating. They could just add "We reserve the right to refuse entry to the tournament for players with an unsportsmanlike reputation" to the tournament invites...
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #343 - 05/15/13 at 23:57:20
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There is also money involved, enough to make our hero a real criminal worthy of jail time if the allegations are true. It's not necessary to flog him, if one can only catch him properly.
  
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