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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy (Read 364132 times)
RdC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #372 - 06/05/13 at 09:50:20
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Vass wrote on 06/05/13 at 09:32:36:

Just another article that wouldn't help at all..  Undecided


Andrew Martin also annotates the Tromp game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OLzbPytRKY

By contrast, he doesn't find anything untoward or especially difficult to find by White.   

Personally it reminded me of the type of game that Julian Hodgson in particular would play in his heyday in the 1990s. 

I wouldn't rule out that Ivanov studies fairly intensively with chess engines, so in at least some of his games the high correlation can be explained by reproducing previously seen ideas.
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #371 - 06/05/13 at 09:32:36
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Quote:
Experts weigh in on Ivanov's performance
5.6.2013 - Two days ago we reported on the crushing victories of a Bulgarian FM against top grandmasters and the suspicion that he was secretly using computer assistance to achieve his success. Extensive analysis of the games by Valeri Lilov made this seem quite plausible. In part two of our series we present the opinions of international experts and one of the GM victims, plus initial reader feeback.
Unquote

Source:
http://chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/PostId/4010032/experts-weigh-in-on-ivanovs-p...

Just another article that wouldn't help at all..  Undecided
  
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MartinC
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #370 - 06/05/13 at 08:20:04
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The final bit of which is my real worry cf over the board play - once it gets relatively easy to arrange that sort of transmission fairly invisibly then we're more or less stuck.
(Especially things related to blunder checking etc.).

Direct move subsitution cheating isn't so bad because of the statistics.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #369 - 06/04/13 at 21:17:55
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/04/13 at 20:36:32:


Yes, due process is required, but I presume it would be administered by a chess federation and not a court of law.  I don't think due process has occurred, no. 


At least one problem is that if a chess federation doesn't follow due process, it is liable to end up in a court of law. The ban on the German player caught in the rest rooms with a phone was overturned because it wasn't in an event directly run by the German Federation.

At the same time as FIDE have announced an anti-cheating commission, they have also announced an on-line service complete with Elo ratings and titles. I thought it well established that on-line chess in the absence of physical arbiters isn't suitable for serious play as you can have no confidence your opponent isn't at the very least looking up openings on another device, blunder checking or looking for engine suggestions.

Statistical methods could point you at those always using an engine in substitution for their own moves, but it's not going to detect consulting or taking advice from third parties with any reliability.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #368 - 06/04/13 at 20:36:32
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Markovich wrote on 06/04/13 at 20:20:03:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/04/13 at 03:20:50:
Markovich wrote on 06/04/13 at 02:18:37:

It should not be incumbent, either, upon an ordinary citizen to win a court case before being treated equally by a sporting association. I don't say he's not cheating, but banning him just smells really bad.


Well, there are legal principles such as probable cause and reasonable doubt that can be analogously applied.  I don't know that a reliable statistical method for comparing human moves to those of an engine has been developed, and I haven't followed all the details in Mr. Ivanov's case, but in principle I don't think that FIDE (or whomever) needs absolute, irrefutable evidence to ban him from future events. 


Do you think they need due process?  The right to present evidence and confront one's accusers?  Impartial judges?

I do not defend Ivanov and indeed, I strongly suspect that he IS cheating.  Irritatingly, he is also thumbing his nose at the chess community.  But I just can't agree with banning someone based on suspicion.  I do not say "irrefutable" evidence is needed, but something is needed beyond, "Well, we all think you're cheating."


I wholeheartedly agree, Markovich.  Yes, due process is required, but I presume it would be administered by a chess federation and not a court of law.  I don't think due process has occurred, no.  

I do think that there is enough probable cause for Mr. Ivanov to be singled out in some way, such as setting up his board inside of a cubicle where no spectators can see the games in progress and without any transmission of moves.  Perhaps once in the tournament, during the course of a game (not before or between rounds), being required to have a hand-held metal detector run over him would be justified.  

If his performance continues in those sorts of conditions, I don't think there's anything else a reasonable person could do.  Continuing the legal analogy, there is enough probable cause to conduct a search or even to "make an arrest." He shouldn't be convicted without due process, though, and no-one knows what "due process" means at this point.  
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #367 - 06/04/13 at 20:20:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/04/13 at 03:20:50:
Markovich wrote on 06/04/13 at 02:18:37:

It should not be incumbent, either, upon an ordinary citizen to win a court case before being treated equally by a sporting association. I don't say he's not cheating, but banning him just smells really bad.


Well, there are legal principles such as probable cause and reasonable doubt that can be analogously applied.  I don't know that a reliable statistical method for comparing human moves to those of an engine has been developed, and I haven't followed all the details in Mr. Ivanov's case, but in principle I don't think that FIDE (or whomever) needs absolute, irrefutable evidence to ban him from future events. 


Do you think they need due process?  The right to present evidence and confront one's accusers?  Impartial judges?

@Vass:  Dear chessfriend, it should be possible for someone to stand in the public square and say vile things about chessplayers, and still be permitted to play chess.  Doing so is rude and stupid, but so long as it isn't done in a way that disrupts a tournament, it has nothing to do with the regulation of chess.  Fischer, during his playing days, said some quite negative things about Soviet ("Russian", as he called them) players in general.

I do not defend Ivanov and indeed, I am fairly certain that he IS cheating.  Irritatingly, he is also thumbing his nose at the chess community.  But I just can't agree with banning someone based on suspicion.  I do not say "irrefutable" evidence is needed, but something is needed beyond, "Well, we all think you're cheating."
  

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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #366 - 06/04/13 at 19:37:40
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http://chess-news.ru/node/12249 (Google-translated)

Quote:
The material is called "Life between chess and chalgoy" (why - it is clear from the text.)

"Chess - a passion of mine - said Ivanov. - I spend every day at the board for three or four hours. I do not have a girlfriend. At night I like to go to discos, usually listen chalgu (Bulgarian direction in music, called pop-folk - a comment . CN) . 

The problem is that no one expects me to win. The reason for my brilliant game in good preparation. GMs do not want to recognize me as a good chess player, and so begin to suspect. I searched like I'm the biggest terrorist. Removed my jacket and shirt. Expect to find the bomb? But have not found anything that might cast doubt on my game. I just went and won.

Most of the players - washed-up assholes. For many chess - a game antisocial. Therefore, among the players, as a rule, the elderly, lonely, unhappy people. But there is a lot of good, who is trying to get away from that stereotype. Honestly, sometimes I'm ashamed to say that I am a chess player ... " 

According to Ivanov, the normal human chess and chalga things are not mutually exclusive.
"
Unquote
Lips Sealed
Do you recognize yourself somewhere here in between the lines of this text?
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #365 - 06/04/13 at 19:21:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/04/13 at 17:44:00:
Well obviously there's more to this story than I've been following, and frankly I haven't been following it lately.  I have two questions, though:

1) What reasonable anti-cheating measures have been taken in tournaments where he's played?  For instance, have they banned spectators in the playing hall, stopped any transmission of moves, etc?

2) Has anyone suggested a plausible technical method by which he has been receiving help?  When it's all said and done, I'd wager that the cheating method has nothing to do with science fiction-like devices planted deep inside his ear (or mircroscopic lenses in his eye), but a conspirator (or two) that is somehow relaying him moves.  

I'm pretty tired of the whole story, actually, and just want to know how it all plays out.  It's like we've been shuffling pieces for 46 moves, pretty soon someone has to push a pawn or capture something, but what then?  Another 49 moves of shuffling until we figure out what's happening? 


Eric, suppose you're a tournament organizer - what would you do?  Huh
Call the FBI or what?
Believe me, it's not a trivial case of cheating. The French case is nothing comparing to this.. The German case is an amateur's comparing to this one.
Not a games broadcasting (except in Zadar), not a help from the public, cell phones, metal sets - all this is for "the kids" in the cheating. Understand?
In Veliko Tarnovo there were some cameras that were situated in the front of his face, so what? All the same.
Bring doctors to pull out all the things out of his ears? What exactly are you suggesting?
In other words, no "reasonable anti-cheating measures" were taken! The chessmen are not policemen, you know..
The only reasonable thought is that this super-hero is not alone. This extremely clever way of cheating is invented from other people and they use this boy in order to announce that there is a new cheating technology. ...Available for sale!
And as soon as a buyer comes in, this boy will be soon forgotten, banned, suspended or whatever..  Roll Eyes
  
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Vass
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #364 - 06/04/13 at 18:58:49
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Keano wrote on 06/04/13 at 12:27:57:
banned for 4 months for bad language? Doesn't sound too fair to me. Sounds like this lad may have a case.

Excuse me, but...do you like to be called "but#head", "as*hole" or sort of that?  Roll Eyes
Our whole chess society was called a bunch of but*heads by this 'clever boy' ...and not once or twice.. All the Bulgarian yellow papers published his words and we even heard such qualifications on the major TV channels in our country.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #363 - 06/04/13 at 17:44:00
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Well obviously there's more to this story than I've been following, and frankly I haven't been following it lately.  I have two questions, though:

1) What reasonable anti-cheating measures have been taken in tournaments where he's played?  For instance, have they banned spectators in the playing hall, stopped any transmission of moves, etc?

2) Has anyone suggested a plausible technical method by which he has been receiving help?  When it's all said and done, I'd wager that the cheating method has nothing to do with science fiction-like devices planted deep inside his ear (or mircroscopic lenses in his eye), but a conspirator (or two) that is somehow relaying him moves.   

I'm pretty tired of the whole story, actually, and just want to know how it all plays out.  It's like we've been shuffling pieces for 46 moves, pretty soon someone has to push a pawn or capture something, but what then?  Another 49 moves of shuffling until we figure out what's happening?
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #362 - 06/04/13 at 13:02:24
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Well, if they've genuinely not followed their own regulations then they really were asking for this sort of thing.

I really doubt if section 1.3 of that thing from the Bulgarian chess federation is going to help their case.

I agree that anything genuinely embedded was essentially never in question, but properly concealing equipment in clothing isn't hugely trivial either.

I don't know about metal detectors - anything like this very likely to have a tiny plastic shell and you wouldn't pick up the truly tiny amount of metal in the circuit boards.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #361 - 06/04/13 at 12:27:57
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banned for 4 months for bad language? Doesn't sound too fair to me. Sounds like this lad may have a case.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #360 - 06/04/13 at 11:58:10
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Quote:

"Young chess player led a legal battle to play
03.06.2013 09:13 | Crime and Law

Borislav Ivanov wants the court to stop banning him play, and then he'll sue The Bulgarian Chess Federation.

Young chess player began a legal battle to regain the right to play. "Trud" learned that 25-year-old Borislav Ivanov today submitted a request Blagoevgrad District Court to stop its prohibition to participate in tournaments in four months.
It was imposed by the Bulgarian Chess Federation (BCF) on May 21. The ban came after last year's tournament in Croatia Ivanov declared rogue. Local organizers found no chicanery by the young man and apologized to him. But then a Bulgarian grandmaster accused him of having "implanted lens in the eye, through which it receives text messages with hints of moves." 
Ivanov, a student, is supported mainly by participation in tournaments and for him they are not just gaining experience and trophies. The ban to play four months will want to attend the events, which has already paid taxes.
So chess player will submit to the court the so-called 'application for security for future action'. With it he declares that it intends to sue the Chess Federation, but up to the moment he'll do it, demands to be allowed to play. The legal protection of Ivanov took the lawyer Mikhail Ekimdjiev. The lawyer learned from "Trud" the history of the young man who was declared unproven rogue, and proceeded to deal with his case for free. According to lawyer Ekimdzhiev, prohibiting Ivanov to play the Chess Federation violated the right to property and privacy. "Random penalties imposed by the BCF affect his sense of honor and dignity, and his public image as a talented and promising chess player," states the appeal that the lawyer brought to court.
The Lawyers point to it and a curious fact, on May 29 Borislav was under examination with x-rays and CAT scan and they didn't find modifications in his head or implanted foreign objects in his body."

Unquote

As you may see, the things are very complicated..

First of all, The Bulgarian Chess Federation banned him for four months for his bad language and not for cheating..

In fact, the text goes like this (Google translator):

Quote:
"1.1. Based on a proposal by the Ethics Committee at the Bulgarian Chess Federation made on 16.05.2013, and in connection with the declaration of prominent Bulgarian chess players received in BCF on 25.04.2013 on the grounds of Art. 29, § 13 of the Statute of BCF in conjunction with Art. 6 para. (1) requires Borislav Krastev Ivanov, born on 21.12.1987, the punishment 'suspension from participation in competitions under auspices of BCF "for a period of four (4) months of continuous media and other events that are incompatible with sporting ethics, undermine the prestige of the BCF and chess figures as a whole.
1.2. It shall take effect immediately.
1.3. On the occasion of expertise - analysis of the games of Borislav Ivanov in chess tournaments in the last nine (9) months in connection with suspicions and accusations of "cheating" of many international tournaments doubt that under established international practice in chess is considered to be sufficiently justified if the person plays in the first line of leading chess programs over 70% of his passes (the "Houdini" "Rybka", etc.). Assumed that it used illegal means in the game. With view the rejection of any doubts about the game, Borislav Ivanov recommended that consent for specialized tests with the technical means which is both in its interest in order to be cleaned his name and in the interest of the BCF, which is warranted in the future do whatever it takes to solve the problem on a national and internationally, if proved by scientific means that it does not
use any unfair means in the game."

Unquote

Secondly, medical "examinations with x-rays and CAT scans" are obviously irrelevant when you can put a camera's eye wherever you can, as well as the receiving set in the ear, just before the game starts. 

As for the media, they never mention why the hero is banned (i.e. for the bad language). They just want the scandal - "a young boy is banned to play chess" and so on.. Hence, the lies with the "prepaid taxes for participating in the tournaments", lawyer's defenses "for free", as well as other declarations for legal rights that I do not bother even to mention here.

Regarding the BCF's decision - the only mistake is that they've been in a hurry to ensure a normal organizing of the forthcoming big summer chess events in Albena, Golden Sands, Varna, Bourgas and alike...and just didn't make the ban as per its own regulations. So, this act can be attacked in the court..
Why so? Maybe just because many players would withdraw their applications for participating in these tournaments.. Nobody wants to play with "the phenomenon" here in Bulgaria, believe me!

What next? I don't know..
But let me say just one thing!
If you really think that this is a specific Bulgarian case - let 'em cope with it (..and we're too far to be concerned about it).. I would say, no, it's not! And don't be surprised, going on your next tournament, when a certain Borislav Ivanov (or other phenomenon) would sit down against you on the other side of the board!

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #359 - 06/04/13 at 03:20:50
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Markovich wrote on 06/04/13 at 02:18:37:

It should not be incumbent, either, upon an ordinary citizen to win a court case before being treated equally by a sporting association. I don't say he's not cheating, but banning him just smells really bad.


Well, there are legal principles such as probable cause and reasonable doubt that can be analogously applied.  I don't know that a reliable statistical method for comparing human moves to those of an engine has been developed, and I haven't followed all the details in Mr. Ivanov's case, but in principle I don't think that FIDE (or whomever) needs absolute, irrefutable evidence to ban him from future events.  Or to only allow him to play under certain conditions, such as setting up his board in a small enclosed room with no spectators allowed and no transmission of moves.  As you say, playing in a chess tournament is not a fundamental right. 

Even running one of those hand-held metal detectors over a player might be justified after a certain amount of suspicious games.  The tournament organizers couldn't legally search someone against their will, but they may stipulate at the beginning of the event that if the metal detector finds something on the person of a player, it's the player's responsibility to show that whatever set it off is not capable of running chess software or sending/receiving transmissions.  Extreme perhaps, but the accused cheater could go a long way to clearing his name if a metal detector found nothing on him after emptying his pockets of his keys.

I agree that banning Ivanov smells terrible, but there's enough probable cause for some kind of action or extra precautions, in my opinion.  It's not like he would be singled out on the basis of race, religion, nationality, etc--he would be singled out on the basis that his moves in many, many games have a 95%+ correlation with those of a chess engine, and I presume that anyone else whose moves also had an extremely high correlation would be treated in the same way.
  
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Re: Cheating scandals in Croatia & Italy
Reply #358 - 06/04/13 at 02:18:37
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To play in organized chess may not be a right, but it is quite unsavory to ban someone without having a proveable case against him. He's not bringing a screaming kid in a baby carriage, so that analogy fails.

It should not be incumbent, either, upon an ordinary citizen to win a court case before being treated equally by a sporting association. I don't say he's not cheating, but banning him just smells really bad.
  

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