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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bogo-Indian move order (Read 30495 times)
BobbyDigital80
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #7 - 04/15/13 at 02:11:21
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Qe7 5.g3 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 Nc6 looks really good. Black will follow up with ...d5. I don't see how White has anything at all in this.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #6 - 04/13/13 at 09:16:33
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Quote:

On the assumption that people will play nice and we can discuss this...


My intention wasn't to be mean, but to humorously point out that we need a little more specifics from BobbyDigital80 to attempt to answer his question.   

There's a ton of theory around 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Bxd2+ 5.Qxd2.  After either 5...0-0 or 5...d5, setups beginning with 6.g3! are considered the most promising.  Therefore it's no advantage to "lure" White into this setup with 3. Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Qe7 5.g3 Bxd2+.  Here Black has committed his Queen to e7 and if he wants to follow up with ...d7-d5, it's likely that the very best he can do is transpose to the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Bxd2+ 5.Qxd2 0-0 6.g3 d5 7.Bg2 Qe7.  In that line White is supposed to keep a small edge, though of course it's playable for Black.

I have no idea when Bobby wants Black to play ...Nb8-c6, which my previous post should have made clear.  I wish people would be a little more specific when they ask these questions, as it can take a little time to give meaningful answers.
  
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Pantu
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #5 - 04/13/13 at 08:51:10
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I actually find the question quite interesting, but the answer supplied above with regards to being able to play Qxd2/Nc3 is at least historically correct.

On the assumption that people will play nice and we can discuss this:

Recent years have seen 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 Bb4+ 4 Bd2 Bxd2+ 5 Qxd2 0-0 6 Bg2 d5 7 0-0 become very popular, when 7...Qe7 will likely transpose to the line 3 Nf3 Bb4+ 4 Bd2 Qe7 5 Bg2 Bxd2 6 Qxd2 0-0 7 Bg2 d5 proposed above.  However in the Catalan move order black might not play the queen to e7 straight away, or at least Carlsen does not.  

In any case there are plenty of games in this line with black following up with ...Rf8-d8, which has been held to be slightly better for white but many people happy enough to play black (personally I think white is ever so slightly better but I'd be happy enough playing black).  Books/articles analysing the 3 g3 Bb4+ 4 Bd2 Bxd2+ Catalan is where to look on this.

The real question is why black would play 4...Qe7 5 g3 Bxd2+ in preference to 4...Bxd2+, and as far as I can see it is a tradeoff between being forced to have the queen on e7 and avoiding 4 Nxd2 (not really a problem) and allowing with a setup with e3 and Be2/d3 instead.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #4 - 04/13/13 at 08:22:07
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 04/13/13 at 03:03:21:
Just take on d2 and play ...d5 and ...Nc6. There's nothing for White here.


Brilliant!  I totally missed that, thanks for supplying that in-depth analysis.   

Edit: After letting Rybdini 6000 run at 12,000 ply all day it may have found a refutation.  Take a closer look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Qe7 5.g3 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2! d5 8.cd! Nc6 9.dc!!
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #3 - 04/13/13 at 03:03:21
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hicetnunc wrote on 04/12/13 at 23:22:29:
The idea is to prevent white from getting a more agressive set-up, namely : Qd2/Nc3

If you play 5...Bxd2, you can't avoid it, but after 5...Nc6 6.Bg2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 runs into 7...Ne4 8.Qc2 Qb4+ when black has a comfortable game

But what's wrong with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 Qe7 5.g3 Bxd2+? Why doesn't black get a comfortable game in this line? White's already committed to g3. Just take on d2 and play ...d5 and ...Nc6. There's nothing for White here.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #2 - 04/13/13 at 02:55:27
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Right, the best square for White's Knight is c3, ready to jump to d5 should Black play ...e6-e5 and not blocking the Queen's view d4.  The point of 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Bb4+ 4. Bd2 Qe7 5. g3 Nc6 6. Bg2 Bxd2+! (instead of 6...0-0?!, for instance), is that now 7.Nbxd2 is more or less forced because of the line hicetnunc gave: 7.Qxd2 Ne4 8.Qc2 Qb4+ is comfortable for Black.
  
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hicetnunc
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Re: Bogo-Indian move order
Reply #1 - 04/12/13 at 23:22:29
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The idea is to prevent white from getting a more agressive set-up, namely : Qd2/Nc3

If you play 5...Bxd2, you can't avoid it, but after 5...Nc6 6.Bg2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 runs into 7...Ne4 8.Qc2 Qb4+ when black has a comfortable game
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Bogo-Indian move order
04/12/13 at 20:09:14
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In Lev Alburt's Chess Openings For Black, Explained, he gives this line:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Bb4+ 4. Bd2 Qe7 5. g3 Nc6 6. Nc3 Bxc3 7. Bxc3 Ne4 8. Rc1 O-O 9. Bg2 d6 10. d5 Nxc3 11. Rxc3 Nb8 12. dxe6 fxe6 13. Nd4 c6 14. O-O Nd7
It seems pretty strange to play this line. Why not just play 5...Bxd2+ and avoid all this? Is there any reason why 5...Nc6 is played instead of 5...Bxd2? In another chapter he gives 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Bb4+ 4. Bd2 Qe7 5. g3 Nc6 6. Bg2 Bxd2+, so why not just take on d2 before playing ...Nc6 to avoid the other line?
  
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