(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › King's Indian › Classical › E98 - 11. ...fxe4
(Moderators: Bibs, trw)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) E98 - 11. ...fxe4 (Read 12576 times)
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #10 - 11/11/13 at 00:26:11
Post Tools
fling wrote on 06/10/13 at 19:18:12:

If this is the case, is that an argument in favor of the move order with f3 before Bd2 instead of the opposite?

interesting question, the way for black to take advantage of 11.f3 (iso 11.Bd2) should be 11...f4 12.Bd2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.c5 Nxc5 (or maybe dxc5) but the big majority of the games just transpose to the main line with 14...Nf6, maybe because exchanging a knight is not so much in the spirit of this line (black would rather sack it than exchange it  Smiley)
so as long as no one takes the pawn on move 14, 11.f3 is more accurate

another line white may wish to avoid (although no one plays it) is 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 13.c5 c6!?, instead c6 doesn't work so well after 13.Rc1 g5 14.c5 (because after 14...c6 15.cxd6 Qxd6 16.dxc6 Nxc6 17.Nb5 Qe7 18.Nb4 black can't play Be6 or Rd8 because white will grab a pawn)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #9 - 07/23/13 at 16:11:14
Post Tools
I think this is a stylistic difference.  If you want to allow Black to chicken out of the Mar Del Plata type positions, then by all means, play Bd2.  It is the principled move, after all, holding up f4 for a tempo and freeing c1 for the rook.  If you want to force the traditional "race", play f3.  Vigorito has a fairly good discussion of these issues in his book mentioned above.

After 11...fxe4, White should generally "play around" a d4 knight for a while, and focus on the e4 square.  The e4 square and more active pieces should compensate for Black's f-file play (eventually) and d4 knight.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #8 - 06/10/13 at 19:18:12
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 06/10/13 at 19:00:46:
LeeRoth wrote on 06/10/13 at 02:34:35:
gewgaw wrote on 06/09/13 at 20:53:05:
 
I´ve to study the position a bit more, but so far Black's play looks somewhat easier.


Why?  White gets the e4 square and chances of reaching a favorable endgame.  I'd rather face ..fxe4 than ..f4 and the kingside pawn roller.   


I've a very good score against ...f4; I use G. Meier's games as model games and when you check these games with houdini you get more and more the feeling, that Black's attack is a paper tiger; a couple of years ago this line was extensively analysed in this forum: "I lost my interest after this". 

After ...fe4 Black can play like this: Ne7-f5-d4, Bc8-f5, Rf7,Qf8, Bg7-h6 (if necessary Nd7-f6-g8); normally Black has probs with his Ne7 and Bg7, but in this line he can solve it and has good game.


If this is the case, is that an argument in favor of the move order with f3 before Bd2 instead of the opposite?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 687
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #7 - 06/10/13 at 19:00:46
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 06/10/13 at 02:34:35:
gewgaw wrote on 06/09/13 at 20:53:05:
 
I´ve to study the position a bit more, but so far Black's play looks somewhat easier.


Why?  White gets the e4 square and chances of reaching a favorable endgame.  I'd rather face ..fxe4 than ..f4 and the kingside pawn roller.   


I've a very good score against ...f4; I use G. Meier's games as model games and when you check these games with houdini you get more and more the feeling, that Black's attack is a paper tiger; a couple of years ago this line was extensively analysed in this forum: "I lost my interest after this". 

After ...fe4 Black can play like this: Ne7-f5-d4, Bc8-f5, Rf7,Qf8, Bg7-h6 (if necessary Nd7-f6-g8); normally Black has probs with his Ne7 and Bg7, but in this line he can solve it and has good game.
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #6 - 06/10/13 at 15:36:45
Post Tools
This game (which was cited in BCO2, by Kasparov and Keene) looks like a dream example for White.  Mortensen, by the way, was (and is) a Danish IM.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #5 - 06/10/13 at 02:34:35
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 06/09/13 at 20:53:05:
 
I´ve to study the position a bit more, but so far Black's play looks somewhat easier.


Why?  White gets the e4 square and chances of reaching a favorable endgame.  I'd rather face ..fxe4 than ..f4 and the kingside pawn roller.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #4 - 06/09/13 at 21:36:21
Post Tools
Another tidbit is that the course of games like Lukacs-Radjabov (and Hübner-Scheeren, and Khalifman-Pieterse, ...), up to about move 20, was given as equal decades ago by Byrne and Mednis, while Panczyk and Ilczuk considered it +=.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 687
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #3 - 06/09/13 at 20:53:05
Post Tools
I browsed through some king's indian books and found something,too:

Vigorito/Attacking chess, king's indian, p.18/19

His game examples are Sofrevski - Portisch, Skopje, 1968 and Lukacs - Radjabov, Budapest, 2000.
He concludes, that overall fxe4 is quite solid, but a bit  dull, all in all playable and a useful adition for Black's repertoire.

I´ve to study the position a bit more, but so far Black's play looks somewhat easier.
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #2 - 06/09/13 at 16:07:04
Post Tools
For what it's worth, I notice that in the position after 14. Bc3, Panczyk and Ilczuk in their 2009 book had 14...Nxe4"!" 15. Bxe4 Qh4 (and then hopping into d4 if White plays 16. Qe2, but not if he plays 16. Re1).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: E98 - 11. ...fxe4
Reply #1 - 06/09/13 at 15:13:16
Post Tools
You might try 13.Bf3 Nf5 14.Bc3 Nd4 15.Nxf6 Qxf6 16.Be4 Qh4 17.Re1 as in Sargissian-Nijboer, Tata Steel (B), 2011 and Dreev-Belov, Moscow 1989.

In his ChessBase annotations of the Sarigissian-Nijboer game, Krasenkow notes that after 17.Re1 White has an ideal arrangement of pieces, controls the e4-square, and can get rid of the Nd4 when convenient.

In this line, if Black tries 14..Nh4 instead, then White plays 15.Nxf6 Qxf6 16.Be4 Bf5 17.Qe2.  Have a look at Huebner-Scheeren, Nijmegen 1982 and Khalifman-Pieterse, Groningen 1989.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 687
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
E98 - 11. ...fxe4
06/08/13 at 18:26:30
Post Tools
Recently I played with White the following game and had big difficulties against the line with 11. ...fe4. 
Who knows a model game to handle this move or can give a good line, because I still have no idea how to play and especially the knight manoeuvre Ne7-f5-d4 is annoying?!

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. e4 d6 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 fxe4 12. Nxe4 Nf6 13. f3 Nf5 14. Rc1 Bd7 15.
Ndf2 Kh8 16. Bd3 Qe7 17. Rc3 Rg8 18. Qc1 Qf8 19. Re1 Nd4 20. Ng3 Bf5 21. Be4
Nd7 22. b4 a5 23. a3 b6 24. Ne2 axb4 25. axb4 Ra4 26. Nxd4 exd4 27. Ra3 Rxa3
28. Qxa3 Ne5 29. Rc1 Bh6 30. Qb2 Bxe4 31. Nxe4 Bg7 32. Qc2 h6 33. Ng3 Qf7 34.
Rf1 Re8 35. h3 b5 36. cxb5 Qxd5 37. Rc1 Re7 38. b6 cxb6 39. f4 Nd7 40. Qxg6 Qf7
41. Rc8+ Nf8 42. Qxd6 Re6 43. Qc7 Qxc7 44. Rxc7 d3 45. Kf2 Nh7 46. Rc8+ Bf8 47.
Kf3 Kg8 48. Rd8 Rd6 49. Rxd6 Bxd6 50. Nf5 Bf8 51. Ke4 Nf6+ 52. Kxd3 Kf7 53. Kc4
Ke6 54. g4 Ne4 55. Be3 Bd6 56. Nxh6 1-0
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge