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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why do not top players play the Stonewall? (Read 39068 times)
Daniel
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #30 - 10/05/13 at 17:17:22
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tony37 wrote on 10/02/13 at 12:04:52:
Daniel wrote on 10/01/13 at 23:59:56:
8. Ne5! is the mainline and best move, tactically preventing a black fianchetto...

it's not, you are confusing this with the g3 main line but here e3+Bd3 is played


Ah I see. Should've read the moves more carefully.
  
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tony37
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #29 - 10/02/13 at 12:04:52
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Daniel wrote on 10/01/13 at 23:59:56:
8. Ne5! is the mainline and best move, tactically preventing a black fianchetto...

it's not, you are confusing this with the g3 main line but here e3+Bd3 is played
  
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Daniel
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #28 - 10/01/13 at 23:59:56
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Dean wrote on 10/01/13 at 20:33:12:
Keano wrote on 10/01/13 at 09:27:43:
Tomashevsky has taken it up and is doing well with it, and I think we can agree he is one of the finest theorists and top players in the world right now.


Yes, Tomashevsky beat no lesser than Aronian in the world cup. The opening was again very comfortable for black. But as Carlsen recently noticed, Aronian sucks against the Dutch and  8.Ne5?! and 11.cxd5?! showed lack of feeling for the position.

[Event "FIDE World Cup"]
[Site "Tromso"]
[Date "2013.08.17"]
[Round "3.1"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Tomashevsky, Evgeny"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A84"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2706"]
[PlyCount "116"]
[EventDate "2013.08.11"]
[EventType "k.o."]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "NOR"]
[SourceDate "2013.08.28"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 Bd6 5. Bd3 f5 6. O-O Nf6 7. b3 Qe7 8. Ne5 O-O
9. Bb2 Bd7 10. Nc3 Be8 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. Rc1 Nc6 13. Nb5 Bb4 14. a3 Ba5 15. Be2
a6 16. Nc3 Ne4 17. b4 Bc7 18. Nxe4 fxe4 19. Qb3 Bxe5 20. dxe5 Qg5 21. Kh1 Bh5
22. f3 Qh6 23. Rce1 exf3 24. gxf3 Rf7 25. Bc1 Bg6 26. e4 Qh3 27. exd5 Nd4 28.
Qd1 Nxe2 29. Qxe2 Bh5 30. Kg1 Bxf3 31. Qf2 Qg4+ 32. Qg3 Qxg3+ 33. hxg3 Bxd5 34.
Be3 a5 35. b5 a4 36. Rxf7 Kxf7 37. Rf1+ Kg6 38. Rf4 h6 39. Kf2 Bb3 40. Rg4+ Kh7
41. Rd4 Rc8 42. b6 Rc2+ 43. Ke1 Ra2 44. Bc1 Rg2 45. Bf4 Rg1+ 46. Kd2 Ra1 47.
Kc3 Rxa3 48. Kb4 Ra1 49. Bd2 Bd5 50. Bc3 Ra2 51. Rd3 Kg6 52. Rd4 a3 53. Rd3 Kf5
54. Bd2 Ra1 55. Bc3 Ra2 56. Bd2 Ke4 57. Re3+ Kd4 58. Bc1 Rc2 0-1



8. Ne5! is the mainline and best move, tactically preventing a black fianchetto...
  
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Dean
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #27 - 10/01/13 at 20:33:12
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Keano wrote on 10/01/13 at 09:27:43:
Tomashevsky has taken it up and is doing well with it, and I think we can agree he is one of the finest theorists and top players in the world right now.


Yes, Tomashevsky beat no lesser than Aronian in the world cup. The opening was again very comfortable for black. But as Carlsen recently noticed, Aronian sucks against the Dutch and  8.Ne5?! and 11.cxd5?! showed lack of feeling for the position.

[Event "FIDE World Cup"]
[Site "Tromso"]
[Date "2013.08.17"]
[Round "3.1"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Tomashevsky, Evgeny"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A84"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2706"]
[PlyCount "116"]
[EventDate "2013.08.11"]
[EventType "k.o."]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "NOR"]
[SourceDate "2013.08.28"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 Bd6 5. Bd3 f5 6. O-O Nf6 7. b3 Qe7 8. Ne5 O-O
9. Bb2 Bd7 10. Nc3 Be8 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. Rc1 Nc6 13. Nb5 Bb4 14. a3 Ba5 15. Be2
a6 16. Nc3 Ne4 17. b4 Bc7 18. Nxe4 fxe4 19. Qb3 Bxe5 20. dxe5 Qg5 21. Kh1 Bh5
22. f3 Qh6 23. Rce1 exf3 24. gxf3 Rf7 25. Bc1 Bg6 26. e4 Qh3 27. exd5 Nd4 28.
Qd1 Nxe2 29. Qxe2 Bh5 30. Kg1 Bxf3 31. Qf2 Qg4+ 32. Qg3 Qxg3+ 33. hxg3 Bxd5 34.
Be3 a5 35. b5 a4 36. Rxf7 Kxf7 37. Rf1+ Kg6 38. Rf4 h6 39. Kf2 Bb3 40. Rg4+ Kh7
41. Rd4 Rc8 42. b6 Rc2+ 43. Ke1 Ra2 44. Bc1 Rg2 45. Bf4 Rg1+ 46. Kd2 Ra1 47.
Kc3 Rxa3 48. Kb4 Ra1 49. Bd2 Bd5 50. Bc3 Ra2 51. Rd3 Kg6 52. Rd4 a3 53. Rd3 Kf5
54. Bd2 Ra1 55. Bc3 Ra2 56. Bd2 Ke4 57. Re3+ Kd4 58. Bc1 Rc2 0-1

  
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Keano
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #26 - 10/01/13 at 09:27:43
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Tomashevsky has taken it up and is doing well with it, and I think we can agree he is one of the finest theorists and top players in the world right now.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #25 - 09/30/13 at 17:19:58
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I agree with Semkov's second point; there just aren't as many different ideas/plans/ways to play the Stonewall Dutch as there are ways to play other openings, like the Nimzo Indian, King's Indian, etc.  That doesn't make it inferior from a theoretical perspective, but it makes White's job much easier, and perhaps inferior from a practical perspective.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #24 - 09/29/13 at 21:00:18
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With all respect for your great chess knowledge, Semkov, but I don't agree with your reasoning. I suppose you are a bit emotional because of your game, which also saw a particular stonewall variant. I don't trust that line, white may for example play the natural plan Bb2 Qc1 and Ba3 and Nc3-e2, which could be painful for black. In the normal version with white fianchetto, black has the modern b6 plans which gives more rich play for black.

And as mentioned below, the statistics show that black scores the same performance in the Nf3 standard stonewall as against the Nimzo-Indian with 4. Qc2, and it is even fewer draws. 

BTW, another recent white side top level game from the World Cup: Kamsky got nothing from the opening, black was even marginally better. After a lively middle game a draw was agreed. 

[Event "FIDE World Cup"]
[Site "Tromso"]
[Date "2013.08.13"]
[Round "1.6"]
[White "Kamsky, Gata"]
[Black "Lou, Yiping"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A90"]
[WhiteElo "2741"]
[BlackElo "2484"]
[PlyCount "139"]
[EventDate "2013.08.11"]
[EventType "k.o."]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "NOR"]
[SourceDate "2013.08.28"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. O-O Bd6 6. c4 O-O 7. b3 b6 8. Ba3 Bb7
9. Qc1 Ne4 10. Bxd6 cxd6 11. cxd5 exd5 12. e3 g5 13. Nc3 Nd7 14. Qb2 f4 15.
exf4 gxf4 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nxf4 Rxf4 18. gxf4 Bxf1 19. Rxf1 Qf6 20. Qc1 Kh8 21.
Kh1 Rg8 22. Bh3 Nf8 23. f5 Qf7 24. Qh6 Qe8 25. Qh4 Qb5 26. Rg1 Qe2 27. Rxg8+
Kxg8 28. Kg2 Qxa2 29. Ng5 Qe2 30. Ne6 h5 31. Nf4 Qd2 32. f6 Qxd4 33. f7+ Kxf7
34. Qxh5+ Kg8 35. Qxd5+ Qxd5 36. Nxd5 Ng6 37. Bg4 Kg7 38. h3 Nf6 39. Nc3 d5 40.
Nb5 a6 41. Nd4 Ne4 42. Kf3 Kf6 43. Ke3 a5 44. f4 Nd6 45. Bd7 Nh4 46. Be6 Ng2+
47. Kf3 Ne1+ 48. Ke3 Nc2+ 49. Nxc2 Kxe6 50. Nd4+ Kf6 51. Kd3 Ne4 52. h4 Ng3 53.
Nb5 Ke6 54. Nd4+ Kd6 55. Nb5+ Kc5 56. Nd4 b5 57. f5 Nh5 58. Kc3 Nf6 59. Ne6+
Kd6 60. Kd4 a4 61. bxa4 bxa4 62. Nf4 Kc6 63. h5 Kb5 64. h6 a3 65. Kc3 Ka4 66.
Kc2 d4 67. Nd3 Nh7 68. Nc1 Kb4 69. Kd3 Kc5 70. Nb3+ 1/2-1/2

  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #23 - 09/08/13 at 20:07:36
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There are two reasons top players do not play the Stonewall:
1. White is better for good if he plays very solid positional chess.
2. The strategic canvas of this opening is extremely poor on ideas. There are very few plans and pawn structures. That makes targeted preparation easy for White. 

This topic is really  my sore point. Many years ago I had the stupidity to choose the Stonewall in an extremely important game. I was leading before the last round with excellent play and I needed a draw to fulfill my third GM norm and win a strong open. This game is one of the worst in my career, but it was very instructive. I finally understood Petrosian who wrote that the most important thing against the Dutch was not to hinder the opponent to choose it. This is about the "daring" defences.

Eingorn,Vereslav - Semkov,Semko [A84]
Metz op 10th Metz, 1992

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.c4 e6 4.e3 f5 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.0-0 Bd6 7.b3 Qe7 8.Bb2 0-0 9.Qc1 Na6 10.Ne5 Bd7 11.c5 Bc7 12.a3 Ng4 13.b4 Nb8 14.f4 Nxe5 15.dxe5 a5 16.Nd2 b5 17.Qc2 Na6 18.Bc3 g6 19.Nf3 Rf7 20.h3 Rg7 21.g4 a4 22.Kh2 Rf8 23.Rg1 Be8 24.Rg3 Bd8 25.Rag1 Nc7 26.Nd4 Bd7 27.gxf5 exf5 28.e6 Nxe6 29.Nxf5 gxf5 30.Bxf5 Rxf5 31.Qxf5 Ng5 32.Qxg5 Qxg5 33.Rxg5 Rxg5 34.fxg5 1-0

« Last Edit: 09/09/13 at 15:31:10 by Semkov »  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #22 - 08/25/13 at 21:29:24
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I played the Stonewall in my teens, combined with the French, which by going 1. d4 e6 avoids a lot of anti-Dutchies. 

When I eventually met players who could defend against my kingside attack, and I had acquired a feel for colour complex weaknesses, I went off it.

That being said, it seems one of those playable at GM level openings, but at the Super-GM level as one of those surprise weapons they end up regretting (Yes Pirc, I'm looking at you too  Roll Eyes)
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #21 - 08/25/13 at 21:25:04
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tony37 wrote on 08/25/13 at 20:51:05:
another loss for the Stonewall today with Caruana, who at some point didn't seem to know what to do with his position


He was spending too much time trying to work out how to get his f5 pawn back to f7  Wink 
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #20 - 08/25/13 at 20:51:05
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another loss for the Stonewall today with Caruana, who at some point didn't seem to know what to do with his position
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #19 - 08/22/13 at 12:58:00
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As stated in the OP the Leningrad has gained some popularity lately but not the Stonewall so I doubt 2.Bg5 or any “anti-Dutch” could explain the specific lack of popularity of the later.
By the way, 2.Bg5 is very popular in repertoire books but not yet a big fashion at top level.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #18 - 08/22/13 at 01:52:10
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Part of the problem with the Stonewall is what happened to Nakamura today in his game against Korobov. His position looked fine until Korobov started trading everything off except the light-squared Bishop. Then it became apparent that Black was effectively a piece down.

Ok, it wasn't a standard Stonewall, but it is precisely that sort of game with no real counterchances that doom the Stonewall as a regular weapon among grandmasters.

  
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #17 - 07/29/13 at 15:56:37
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For young and improving players, I would advocate 2.e4 in response to 1.d4 f5.  A many fun wins can be obtained, and it's great for one's chess education.  Alternatively, 2.Nc3 and if 2...d5, then 3.e4.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Why do not top players play the Stonewall?
Reply #16 - 07/28/13 at 21:11:28
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So ...f5 has some downsides, White will likely get the Bishop pair, and you still don't think there's any reason that this "should favor White slightly"?  Even after the simple 6.e3 I'd prefer White, though again I'm sure it's playable for Black.   

We disagree I guess.
  
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