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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New Leningrad Dutch Book (Read 100851 times)
topandkas
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #19 - 04/23/14 at 15:57:05
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A bit off topic but today Svdiler, duting his commentary of the Shamkir tournament, mentioned that whilst preparing for the Candidate Torunament he realized that one would have a very tough time playing the Dutch Leningrad on a regular basis at this level. He was quite emphatic in his remark and seemed to almost imply that the Leningrad is just unsound. Does anyone have any idea why he would think that!? To my knowledge Black has actually been doing really well as of late, even on the highest level but it remains a rare guest at top events nonetheless, so the Super GMs must know something that we amateurs are not aware off! Sad
  
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Isolani
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #18 - 04/23/14 at 14:30:10
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The contents are more detailed now. The main line is 7..Qe8. Let's hope they have something to show against the gambit line 8.Te1, 9.e4.
  
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BlkSabb
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #17 - 04/23/14 at 10:52:09
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They finally have a release date for the Malaniuk book. Expected in May.
  
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Ludde
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #16 - 01/21/14 at 08:25:53
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Viking wrote on 01/20/14 at 22:27:51:
TalJechin wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:34:40:
Moskalenko also has a new book on the different Dutchs in the works:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Diamond-Dutch-Strategic-Powerful/dp/9056914413/

Anyone seen this?

Got it a few days ago. As usual with this author it is inspiring but not overly structured. I really liked both his books on the French, much less the later book on the Pirc/Modern. This book is interesting since he plays the Dutch himself, but also champions various anti-dutch lines, in particular 2.Nc3 which he seems to consider a serious threat.
One thing I especially like is that he discusses recent (and not so recent) books on the Dutch and the conclusions and recommendations in them. I think that the chapters on the Stonewall, which seems to be Moskalenkos main defence tio 1.d4, are particularly interesting, but the coverage of the Classical and Leningrad is not bad either. He has strong opinions which are in my view sometimes controversial, but on the other hand this is definitely where value is added in a book of this type. Much less a comprehensive coverage of the current state of the theory (lines which should then have been there are simply omitted) and more a personal view on the opening and full of ideas (of varying quality as far as I can tell).
To me it seems an essential book for anyone who is seriously interested in this opening but it will require work and a critical attitude to fully benefit from it.
  
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Viking
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #15 - 01/20/14 at 22:27:51
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TalJechin wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:34:40:
Moskalenko also has a new book on the different Dutchs in the works:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Diamond-Dutch-Strategic-Powerful/dp/9056914413/

Anyone seen this?
  
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Ludde
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #14 - 11/18/13 at 16:04:37
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Anyone has an idea as to what is happening here? On the Chess Stars site it just days "delayed by the authors". I know Chess Stars representatives post here occasionally. The truth is that I can't wait either Smiley
  
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Bonsai
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #13 - 10/28/13 at 09:05:33
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People keep going for it: 8.Re1 Qf7 9.e4 Nxe4 10....Nxe4 11.Rxe4 Bf5? occured in my latest game in this line. At least I was not alone in not spotting how great 12.Ng5 is and played 12.Rh4 (GM Gustafsson did the same before, but continue more crisply then I did), which still presents black with plenty of problems. My opponent (2228) had never seen the line before and got into terrible time trouble early on and lost.

If only there were anything similarly direct I could play against 7...c6 and 7...Nc6 as white... Certainly, for playing black by comparison to 7...Qe8 the murky lines with 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 look more and more interesting to me. And of course 7...c6 is still holding up well, as far as I know.
  
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #12 - 10/27/13 at 23:07:16
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Bonsai wrote on 08/12/13 at 21:44:43:
If the chapter split remains the same, then 7...e6 or some other low(ish) theory variation seems the most likely to me. How would one stuff all the 7...Qe8 lines into a single chapter?

Ty wrote on 08/11/13 at 15:22:30:

Is 8.Re1 really that much of a problem? Have major improvements for White been found since Kindermann?

Yes. In particular in the 8.Re1 Qf7 9.e4 line. Nothing like a total refutation of the opening, but black has much more of an uphill struggle than anyone realised until recently. In fact, when I analysed this, I was no longer entirely sure whether 8...Qf7 is really any better than 8...c6, 8...e5 or 8...h6, all of which perhaps look a bit shaky. On the other hand, it's always a bit hard to tell how much is just the computer's preference for certain aspects of white's position or my limited chess ability as opposed to any actual true advantage.

The one time I've managed to get this on the board as white, both me and my 18 year-old 2200ish opponent had done in-depth computer analysis, but both deviated after 9...fxe4 10.Ng5 Qxc4 11.Ngxe4 from what the other had prepared on moves 11 (him deliberately with 11...c6!?) and 12 (me with 11.d5!? - because I decided at the board that it was a principled move to punish him for not preparing the queen's retreat to f7, but as far as the computer evaluation goes, you might call it either an unnecessary but not totally incorrect pawn sacrifice). So despite all that preparing, we were totally out of book in a razor-sharp position, which I eventually managed to win. I suspect there's plenty of opportunities to deviate with what is perhaps the computer's 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th choice at so many points, that from a practical perspective there's simply such a jungle of variations that white will never memorize it all (or I am just getting old...).


My efforts to research this troublesome line has led me to believe that what you mention here is probably close to best play overall. 11..c6 seems like one of blacks better attempts.  The alternative could be, as in some CC games quite recently, to play what Flear more or less condemned in an update not too long ago: 11..Sxe4 12.Rxe4 Qf7 13.Rf4 Bf6 15.Nd5 and now 14..g5.  both these lines might be playable - but the truth is that The 8.Re1, 9.e4 has taken a lot of the fun out of the Qe8-line alltogether. Black faces an unpleasant defensive task at the mere price of a pawn. Very different type of play compared to the old main line with 8.d5 where black often gets interesting counterplay.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #11 - 08/13/13 at 06:49:00
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If Black is willing to trust his own abilities there are probably many other surprise weapons that are quite playable. A few years ago in Politiken Cup I was black vs a 2300 Dane, he chose the Main ML - which he hadn't played before according to my preparations so at the board I got the idea to avoid his prep by playing 7...h6 instead, which worked very well indeed! Smiley

When I got home I noticed that it had actually been tried occasionally by a few really strong players too, so it could be an option for those who like to 'play with their hands'.

On the book issue, one might suspect that a volume two on the main lines might be planned.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #10 - 08/12/13 at 21:44:43
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If the chapter split remains the same, then 7...e6 or some other low(ish) theory variation seems the most likely to me. How would one stuff all the 7...Qe8 lines into a single chapter?

Ty wrote on 08/11/13 at 15:22:30:

Is 8.Re1 really that much of a problem? Have major improvements for White been found since Kindermann?

Yes. In particular in the 8.Re1 Qf7 9.e4 line. Nothing like a total refutation of the opening, but black has much more of an uphill struggle than anyone realised until recently. In fact, when I analysed this, I was no longer entirely sure whether 8...Qf7 is really any better than 8...c6, 8...e5 or 8...h6, all of which perhaps look a bit shaky. On the other hand, it's always a bit hard to tell how much is just the computer's preference for certain aspects of white's position or my limited chess ability as opposed to any actual true advantage.

The one time I've managed to get this on the board as white, both me and my 18 year-old 2200ish opponent had done in-depth computer analysis, but both deviated after 9...fxe4 10.Ng5 Qxc4 11.Ngxe4 from what the other had prepared on moves 11 (him deliberately with 11...c6!?) and 12 (me with 11.d5!? - because I decided at the board that it was a principled move to punish him for not preparing the queen's retreat to f7, but as far as the computer evaluation goes, you might call it either an unnecessary but not totally incorrect pawn sacrifice). So despite all that preparing, we were totally out of book in a razor-sharp position, which I eventually managed to win. I suspect there's plenty of opportunities to deviate with what is perhaps the computer's 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th choice at so many points, that from a practical perspective there's simply such a jungle of variations that white will never memorize it all (or I am just getting old...).
  
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #9 - 08/12/13 at 13:38:56
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I remember having to prepare against the Leningrad, and the Re1 line is not all its cracked up to be by some on here. In the end I went for a double fianchetto, which was nice and solid but hardly a threat to the existence of the Leningrad.
  
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #8 - 08/11/13 at 15:22:30
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Stigma wrote on 08/11/13 at 10:37:53:
It would be a shame if the world's greatest expert on 7...Qe8 didn't cover it. But that  of course means he must find something playable against 8.Re1!

Fearing that line, I've been dabbling in some of McDonald's (and earlier, Beim's) 7...c6 lines. But 7...e6 might be a welcome change; it looks strange to me but I've never investigated it.


Is 8.Re1 really that much of a problem? Have major improvements for White been found since Kindermann? 

Personally, I would like to see Malaniuk cover 7...Qe8 as well, though some indepth coverage on 8...Na6 in the mainline would be nice, as Kindermann covers 8...a5 in a lot of depth. 

@winawer77 -- Yeah that is annoying how the excerpt doesn't reveal Black's 7th move in the mainline! 
  
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Stigma
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #7 - 08/11/13 at 10:37:53
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It would be a shame if the world's greatest expert on 7...Qe8 didn't cover it. But that  of course means he must find something playable against 8.Re1!

Fearing that line, I've been dabbling in some of McDonald's (and earlier, Beim's) 7...c6 lines. But 7...e6 might be a welcome change; it looks strange to me but I've never investigated it.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #6 - 08/11/13 at 08:07:34
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Well, the Malanjuk contents are up on the Chess Stars site.

http://www.chess-stars.com/resources/dutch_contents.pdf

Lots of good coverage of sidelines, though I see the ...c6 systems are recommended against an early b2-b4 by White. Ok in itself, though I personally prefer quick developing ...Nc6 lines a la Kindermann.

However...Chapter 11 looks like the main line, but there is no indication as to what Black's recommended 7th move will be after 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.g3 Bg7 5.Bg2 0–0 6.Nf3 d6 7.0–0 Huh
  
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Re: New Leningrad Dutch Book
Reply #5 - 08/02/13 at 14:34:40
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Moskalenko also has a new book on the different Dutchs in the works:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Diamond-Dutch-Strategic-Powerful/dp/9056914413/
  
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