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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro (Read 38489 times)
Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #31 - 05/22/14 at 10:45:13
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Bonsai wrote on 05/22/14 at 10:38:48:
Clearly Carlsen has said so implicitly, if he thinks that 1...c5 and 1...e5 are objectively better. Not that there's any reason to stop playing the French, just because Carlsen said that, it has not stopped him, after all (against the highest level of opposition). Presumably he simply thinks it's a tiny bit worse than 1...c5 or ...e5, but not by a large margin.


Except he never said that! Cool But he did explicitly say that he used to think it was second-rate.

Note the past tense.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #30 - 05/22/14 at 10:38:48
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Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 21:18:10:
Neither explicitly or implicitly or any other way.

Clearly Carlsen has said so implicitly, if he thinks that 1...c5 and 1...e5 are objectively better. Not that there's any reason to stop playing the French, just because Carlsen said that, it has not stopped him, after all (against the highest level of opposition). Presumably he simply thinks it's a tiny bit worse than 1...c5 or ...e5, but not by a large margin.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #29 - 05/21/14 at 21:18:10
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Neither explicitly or implicitly or any other way.

Whats more in the case of Kasparov I think he went further and said all of the main openings were equally playable, it was a question of preference.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #28 - 05/21/14 at 20:55:30
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Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 20:45:02:
Carlsen never said it was a second rate defence.

Kasparov never said it was a second rate defence.

This is what we are discussing.


Ok, so your point is that neither explicitly said that the french is a 2nd rate defense, which is probably true. Ok.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #27 - 05/21/14 at 20:45:02
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Carlsen never said it was a second rate defence.

Kasparov never said it was a second rate defence.

This is what we are discussing.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #26 - 05/21/14 at 20:07:53
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Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 19:37:30:
How would it make it second rate because one player opines he thinks other defences are better?


If there are better moves than 1...e6 it would make the french a 2nd rate defence. I claimed nothing else. Carlsen said that he thinks 1...c5 and e5 are better... so I don't really know what we are discussing here?! I don't know how serious he was in his comment but that's what he said ...

Obviously this doesn't say much (or even anything) about the ultimate quality of 1...e6. but then again, no one claimed it would
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #25 - 05/21/14 at 19:37:30
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How would it make it second rate because one player opines he thinks other defences are better?

Just one players opinion in one moment in time, as opposed to that we have Petrosian, Korchnoi, and all the other greats to fall back on. Including Morozevich in modern times.

Besides which, it was a throwaway rentaquote.

And even if we accept that, no it doesn't make an opening second rate, what he was talking about there was a bit of chess philosophy, it was a bit of a silly comment tbh, but in no way in heaven or earth did he say the French was a second rate defence.

So Pingudon, show me where Carlsen and Kasparov have said the French is a second rate defence....

"second rate defence" according to Carlsen and Kasparov apparently.

I'm still waiting.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #24 - 05/21/14 at 19:35:39
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Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 19:22:55:
tipau wrote on 05/21/14 at 13:54:47:
When Carlsen says he believes that both 1...c5 and 1...e5 are the best choices doesn't that by definition mean he thinks other options are "second rate"?

I think that the vast majority of top GMs would rather face the French than those moves. Perhaps objectively all roads lead to a draw but the journey is likely to be more bumpy via 1...e6.


short answer - no.


Not sure about the second part of Tipau's statement, but I think the first part is correct. Technically speaking it would make the french second rate in case there are better options as Carlsen implies...
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #23 - 05/21/14 at 19:22:55
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tipau wrote on 05/21/14 at 13:54:47:
When Carlsen says he believes that both 1...c5 and 1...e5 are the best choices doesn't that by definition mean he thinks other options are "second rate"?

I think that the vast majority of top GMs would rather face the French than those moves. Perhaps objectively all roads lead to a draw but the journey is likely to be more bumpy via 1...e6.


short answer - no.

Also a draw may not be what we are after as Black.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #22 - 05/21/14 at 13:54:47
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When Carlsen says he believes that both 1...c5 and 1...e5 are the best choices doesn't that by definition mean he thinks other options are "second rate"?

I think that the vast majority of top GMs would rather face the French than those moves. Perhaps objectively all roads lead to a draw but the journey is likely to be more bumpy via 1...e6.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #21 - 05/20/14 at 20:32:11
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Pingudon wrote on 04/12/14 at 21:17:11:
Keano you are right. I found at last what Carlsen said...http://amateur-chess.blogspot.com/2013/05/annotated-chess-game-in-french-defence.... Exactly what you said


Thanks Pingudon for the link. I think he has played it again since also, and will no doubt play it in the future.

To clear this up the French is not a second rate defence at any level by any means, this whole thing is stylistic. I am more convinced by this now than ever.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #20 - 04/12/14 at 21:17:11
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Keano you are right. I found at last what Carlsen said...http://amateur-chess.blogspot.com/2013/05/annotated-chess-game-in-french-defence.... Exactly what you said
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #19 - 02/18/14 at 15:32:12
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lnn2 wrote on 02/18/14 at 15:24:02:
Yes I read Carlsen's comments in NIC magazine too. Annotations to Karjakin-Carlsen Wijk aan Zee. Don't have a copy with me now but I agree that Carlsen definitely said French was a second-rate opening. I recall Carlsen said that he made a bet with a friend and the loser had to play the french in a tournament game, and thats why Carlsen played the french against Karjakin. 

His comments didn't stop me from playing the French though.


No, what he actually said was: "The French Defence. In my younger years I used to consider it at best a second-rate opening, and I once even lost a bet with one of my friends, and as a result had to play 1... e6 in all my games with Black in a Super-GM tournament. Fortunately my friend was greedy, and took money instead. I believe that both 1...c5 and 1...e5! are better choices, but since I desperately wanted to win this game (I was trailing the leaders Kramnik and Shirov by 1 point at this stage) I decided to try something new."

Funny enough it led to what he called "My best game in Corus 2010!"

Still waiting....
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #18 - 02/18/14 at 15:24:02
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Yes I read Carlsen's comments in NIC magazine too. Annotations to Karjakin-Carlsen Wijk aan Zee. Don't have a copy with me now but I agree that Carlsen definitely said French was a second-rate opening. I recall Carlsen said that he made a bet with a friend and the loser had to play the french in a tournament game, and thats why Carlsen played the french against Karjakin. 

His comments didn't stop me from playing the French though.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #17 - 02/11/14 at 20:51:25
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"second rate defence" according to Carlsen and Kasparov apparently.

I'm still waiting.
  
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