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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret (Read 9895 times)
Carld
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #15 - 01/14/16 at 00:29:53
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barnaby wrote on 12/13/15 at 17:26:30:

By law in the USA, chess game scores belong to the tournament.


Chess is a sporting event, and reporting the facts of a sporting event is completely legal under US copyright law.
  
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HagenWatch1
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #14 - 12/20/15 at 13:34:46
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I'll take a guess at speculating what Mariya Muzychuk may use in the match.

I don't think Mariya Muzychuk is going to try to reveal some theoretical novelty in some established opening because its clear Yifan steers games away from theoretical duels. But I do think its possible we might see some openings we've never seen before in championship matches.

For example the Dutch Defence might be seen. Mariya Muzychuk likes this defence as Black so we could see this. I don't think we've seen the Dutch Defence used in modern championship play. Then there's the Benko Gambit which she also uses from time to time. However I don't think she'll use the Benoni as this would be risky considering Black could be forced into a defensive position throughout the game.

As for White...I think Mariya Muzychuk might play the Italian Game to avoid any tricks from Yifan in the Ruy Lopez. However I was impressed Mariya Muzychuk was able to defeat Pogonina when the Breyer variation was used so we might see a Ruy Lopez but as to whether we'll see a Berlin Wall or the Marshall i obviously don't know.

Finally although we don't know what Mariya Muzychuk will play in the match next March the recent Ukranian championship match just completed Chessbase reported that Mariya Muzychuk was able to hold off an opponent 150 elo points higher to a draw.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #13 - 12/14/15 at 20:31:29
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As far as I can see there is no evidence or even suggestion of any malpractice and no reason to believe there was. 

I think the only way this could be bad practice would be if others could get the games, but it would just involve a lot of grunt work for them. Forcing other people to do grunt work for no reason probably isn't cool alright, that objection I can understand.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #12 - 12/14/15 at 15:33:03
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No, I meant that we don't even know if those "games" are scripts to be released later in order to validate Muzychuk's status as champion without her thinking through any chess. It's true, I'm not worrying about whether the word "arranged" designates a game played before a board with a foreordained result, like an prearranged draw; a game score composed in advance but played out with hands, like (probably) Botvinnik-Chekhover; or a game score composed and not played out, but merely released, like, maybe, this.

Probably the games proceeded normally. My point is just that you can see how bad this development is simply in the way it raises doubt (and I don't mean Cartesian doubt).
« Last Edit: 12/14/15 at 20:37:05 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #11 - 12/14/15 at 10:46:52
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/13/15 at 16:37:57:
In the past, candidates would play in public tournaments, disguising their openings, presumably with lines they won't play combined with a few stems of openings that they will  (in case the opponent tries to make an inference based on absence). To practice the actual lines to be used in the match, they played secret training games with seconds or trusted partners.

Certainly the candidate is not to be blamed, but by the organizers of a public tournament who refuse to report the games of a candidate they favor because she shares their nationality are to be blamed.

It seems to me that Muzychuk's team can never be sure that Hou will not become aware of the games played there, for example by bribing her Ukranian opponents. The whole circus looks to me  like some kind of disinformation campaign. (How do we even know the games were played? Maybe they just want to rest her!)

But whatever it is, I think it's a bad development, damaging the tradition of  publishing games played in public tournaments. The fact that we don't know whether the games were arranged speaks for itself.


This development of keeping Mariya Muzychuk's games secret was apparently not her team's idea. That's my impression. I could be wrong. In any case the idea that the games could have been arranged doesn't work because Mariya Muzychuk's games themselves are being kept under wraps. Why arrange games when the moves are being kept from public view?
  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #10 - 12/13/15 at 22:48:26
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What about national championchips where the tournament is run by the national government? Till exemple, what if a country X puts an amount of money to sponsor the tournament to determine who is the champion of their country? I am sure most countries would do this for their national championchips because it would be run by the Ministry of Sport, or something similar ? Then it would have to be public , no?

Countries like Argentina and Russia have their national championchips run by the Ministry of Sport or Mind Sport, as far as I know. As these agencies are part of the government, it is in publik domain.

In Norway, they can see how much their fellow citizens earn and pay in taxes in % (skatt), just as publik as it is for them to see peoples phone numbers in the phone book . Why not chess games too ?
  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #9 - 12/13/15 at 21:47:33
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Well, I was speaking of prevailing conventions for major things like national championships, not laws.  I wouldn't disagree about the law.
  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #8 - 12/13/15 at 17:26:30
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The majority of Chess Tournaments are not 'public.'

They are private affairs, run by organized institutions.  They are not held to the same laws as events in a public commons.

By law in the USA, chess game scores belong to the tournament.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #7 - 12/13/15 at 16:37:57
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In the past, candidates would play in public tournaments, disguising their openings, presumably with lines they won't play combined with a few stems of openings that they will  (in case the opponent tries to make an inference based on absence). To practice the actual lines to be used in the match, they played secret training games with seconds or trusted partners.

Certainly the candidate is not to be blamed, but by the organizers of a public tournament who refuse to report the games of a candidate they favor because she shares their nationality are to be blamed.

It seems to me that Muzychuk's team can never be sure that Hou will not become aware of the games played there, for example by bribing her Ukranian opponents. The whole circus looks to me  like some kind of disinformation campaign. (How do we even know the games were played? Maybe they just want to rest her!)

But whatever it is, I think it's a bad development, damaging the tradition of  publishing games played in public tournaments. The fact that we don't know whether the games were arranged speaks for itself.
  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #6 - 12/12/15 at 18:27:00
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Since when is doing what you can to try to gain an advantage "signs of desperation"? It's the correct decision if they believe it will give her an advantage. 

Competition isn't supposed to be about holding hands and getting along, it's doing what you can to win. In that respect it could be argued that it's the duty of a person to actually keep their games secret if they think that's possible. You need to do every little thing that gives you a better chance, that's the sign of a fine sportperson.  
 
« Last Edit: 12/12/15 at 19:40:21 by Uhohspaghettio »  
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #5 - 12/06/15 at 14:52:45
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Not sure i understand how games can be copyrighted and sold (in practical terms - i dont think publishers, other than perhaps chessbase, for example make enough money to pay)
  

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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #4 - 12/06/15 at 13:21:43
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As an 2000 amateur I'm not willing to pay more for game notations. 

If you buy a database you pay for games. I will only pay for commented games, b.e. in books. When participating a tournament and paying the entrance fee I pay for the games of the professionals too. So it's about paying more.
  

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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #3 - 12/05/15 at 22:35:24
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I can understand this, and I don't see anything wrong with it. 

I'm actually in favour of putting copyright on games, and sell them.

I think that would be a much more practical way to bring money to chess than trying to sell chess to TV...
  

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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #2 - 12/05/15 at 19:07:09
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brabo wrote on 12/05/15 at 19:00:35:
I already answered on chessbase so I mainly repeat.
Hiding games has always existed. Remember the secret traininggames played by Kasparov, Karpov, Timman, Anand,..
I notice more and more sites are blocking visitors of downloading games and just restrict access to a limited public. See my article http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/04/password.html
I also wrote a few years ago about more and more tournaments not willing to publish anything at all anymore. It just doesn't feel fair that participants are punished by publishing their games which other people can use against them see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/11/partijpublicaties.html
Finally I also want to add that we should not forget that iccf has blocked visitors of downloading their databases see http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/10/iccf.html

So what happens in Ukraine is nothing new. I wouldn't be surprised if this will happen more frequently. It definitely is not a good thing for propagandizing chess but I do understand that people are pissed off to see their games in databases only to be used for preparations against themselves.


I'd like to hear GM Yasser Seirawan's position on this issue because he's played against some of the very names you mentioned. I can understand training games can be kept secret. But this is a public event...the Ukrainian Chess championship. The fact this is a public event and yet a participant like Mariya Muzychuk's games here are being kept secret is something new I think. 
  
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brabo
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Re: Mariya Muzychuk's chess games being kept secret
Reply #1 - 12/05/15 at 19:00:35
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I already answered on chessbase so I mainly repeat.
Hiding games has always existed. Remember the secret traininggames played by Kasparov, Karpov, Timman, Anand,..
I notice more and more sites are blocking visitors of downloading games and just restrict access to a limited public. See my article http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/04/password.html
I also wrote a few years ago about more and more tournaments not willing to publish anything at all anymore. It just doesn't feel fair that participants are punished by publishing their games which other people can use against them see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/11/partijpublicaties.html
Finally I also want to add that we should not forget that iccf has blocked visitors of downloading their databases see http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/10/iccf.html

So what happens in Ukraine is nothing new. I wouldn't be surprised if this will happen more frequently. It definitely is not a good thing for propagandizing chess but I do understand that people are pissed off to see their games in databases only to be used for preparations against themselves.
  
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