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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order (Read 9908 times)
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #12 - 09/18/24 at 12:09:42
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Rodi covers this in "Modernised Queen Gambit Declined" probably his NIC articles but maybe a few updates. After 4Nf3 Nb-d7 5pxp pxp black can play as in Gukesh v Caruana Candidates with 6Bg5 c6 7e3 h6 8Bh4 g5 9Bg5 Nh5 etc. So there is something like a complete rep with nb-d7 in that book
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #11 - 09/14/24 at 21:46:00
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FreeRepublic - I checked your line with 5...dxc4 in the Mega and UltraCorr databases and found no occurrences of 9...Ba5. ChessPublishing's new position search feature pointed to the game Nakamura-Anand, London Chess Classic 2016, where 9...Ba5 was included in Max Illingworth's notes in the December 2016 update to the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 section. While 5.Bf4 dxc4 wasn't played in  Nakamura-Anand, Illingworth used the game to present new developments in the 4...Nbd7 line. His analysis of 9...Ba5 followed your Stockfish sample line for a few moves: 10.Bc4 Nxc3 11.Qd2 Nb6 12.b4 Nc4 13.Qxc3. Now he gave 13...Nxe3 14.fxe3 Bb6 15.0-0 Bb7 16.Rac1⩲ as favoring White. Stockfish likes the continuation in your sample line better: 13...Ba6 14.bxa5 c5 15.dxc5 f6 16.0-0 e5 17.Rfd1 Qe7, evaluating the position given in your second diagram as close to =. Perhaps Illingworth was trying to maintain material equality with 13...Nxe3, but the resulting position isn't quite as good for Black. In contrast, Black remains two pawns down in the second diagram, but apparently the doubled a-pawns and broken queenside structure provide decent compensation. 

BTW - If Stockfish could be capable of a human trait such as sneakiness, that might explain one of its top recommendations in the second diagram: 18.c6!?. Now the greedy 18...exf4? loses to 19.Rd7! Black can instead maintain equality with 18...0-0, although after 19.Rd7, he has to endure the presence of the White rook deep in his position for a bit until he can contrive to neutralize it.
« Last Edit: 09/14/24 at 23:04:07 by Nernstian59 »  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #10 - 09/09/24 at 18:37:24
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After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3, I think that 4...Nbd7!? retains it's status as often recommended side-line. It's not suitable for players who want to play the Tartakover variation, or who want to defer ...Nbd7 in the exchange variation. However, that would not bother some players. If White wants to avoid transposition to the Manhattan, Cambridge Springs, Orthodox, or Exchange variations, he can play
5. Bf4!
5...dxc has been recommended, and more recently 5...Bb4. My note on sources:

Davies (Kindle Location 3022) for 5...dxc.
Max Illingworth, ChessPub, for 5...Bb4.
More recently:
GM Arjun (Modern-Chess) and Krishnater (Chessable) for 5...Bb4.
Rodi (Forward chess) and NIC 119, 121, 122, for 5...dxc4.

5...Bb4 analysis by Arjun and Krishnater diverge in at least one crucial line. I think they both demonstrate that Black hangs in there in complex play but the analysis sometimes runs deep.

The older 5...dxc4 provides interesting, perhaps simpler play. After,
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bf4 dc4 6. e3 b5!? (6...Nb6, 6...Nd5, 6...a6) 7. Nb5 Bb4 (7...Nd5) 8. Nc3 (8Nd2) Nd5 9. a3, 9...Nxc3 and 9...Bxc3 have been played or analyzed. 9...Ba5!? seems to be new and might be ok.

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Here is some extended analysis with stockfish, by way of a sample line:
10. Bc4 (10Rc1) Nc3 11. Qd2 Nb6!? 12. b4!? Nc4 13. Qc3 Ba6!? 14. ba5 c5 15. dc5 f6 16. O-O e5 17. Rfd1 Qe7

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Stockfish still prefers White a little, but the position looks ok to me.
« Last Edit: 09/09/24 at 19:54:55 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #9 - 11/24/23 at 12:11:20
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Of course, every opening move opens up some possibilities and closes off others. To observe this in isolation doesn't advance the discussion.
  

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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #8 - 11/24/23 at 11:49:33
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4. ...Nbd7 5.cd5 ed5 and Black lost some options with Bc8 in the exchange line.
  

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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #7 - 11/22/23 at 18:12:50
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There is a new repertoire that concentrates on:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Nbd7

(or 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7)

https://www.modern-chess.com/queens-gambit-declined-repertoire-for-black-after-1...

It takes 5Bf4 as the major line, but also has coverage of 5Bg5, 5cxd, and other fifth moves by White.
  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #6 - 02/05/21 at 22:28:11
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Nigel Davies' book on the Queen's Gambit Declined includes Bf4 lines preceded by either ...Be7 or ...Nbd7.

He provides seven annotated games after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7: four games with 5Bf4 dxc and three with 5cxd exd 6Bf4. ChessPublishing has also covered these lines. It seems that Black is doing reasonably well in both theory and practice.

The ...Nbd7 Bf4 lines are especially relevant to anyone considering the Cambridge Springs variation as black.
  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #5 - 12/06/17 at 21:44:39
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Methodchess wrote on 02/29/16 at 02:38:38:
I like this following set-up used by Grachev and Zvjaginsev in particular but game I used below was from Jianu-Marin, 2014: 4...Nbd7


I just downloaded Nigel Davies new book on the Queen's Gambit Declined. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 is his main recommendation. He considers 5Bf4 and 5cxd exd 6Bf4. Right up your alley.

His second repertoire proceeds with 4 ... Be7 5 Bf4 0-0 6 e3 b6.
  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #4 - 12/06/17 at 17:25:44
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Methodchess wrote on 02/29/16 at 02:38:38:
Further to the above I also think the following line is worth considering as an alternative to 5...dxc4, instead play 5...c6


I continued on your on-screen board. The final position looks so much like the Exchange variation that I thought it would transpose. It's not so simple. In some lines of the exchange variation white prefers Bf4 to the exchange of bishops. The main variation has black's knight on f8 instead of d7. I found one line with an early Nf3 (not considered best) where black is one tempo ahead. So your sequence puts black one tempo behind in a variation that is generally avoided by white. So it turns out that comparing lines is not so easy!

  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #3 - 12/05/17 at 21:05:52
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Methodchess wrote on 02/29/16 at 02:38:38:
I like this following set-up used by Grachev and Zvjaginsev in particular but game I used below was from Jianu-Marin, 2014: 4...Nbd7 5.Bf4 dxc4 6.e3 Nb6 7.Bxc4 Nxc4 8.Qa4+ c6 9.Qxc4 Nd5


Thanks for the excellent post. I've been curious about this also. It was recommended for black in a book (perhaps by Lalic) not in my current possession.

ChessPublishing (CP) favors white somewhat after:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bf4 dxc4!? 6. e3 Nb6 7. Bxc4 Nxc4 8. Qa4+ c6 9. Qxc4 Nd5 10. O-O Nxf4 11. exf4 Be7 12. Rfe1 O-O 13. Rad1 Qd6 14Ne5 f6 15. Nd3 b5 16. Qb3 Qxd4 17. Ne5 Qxf4, with many moves considered on move 18, or simply 14.g3. StockFish thinks black is doing allright. Perhaps they are both right.

CP gives a positive nod to 5...Bb4, but without analysis. It resembles the Ragozin variation, but with white's queen bishop on f4 instead of g5. I suspect this difference favors black as a bishop on g5 puts more pressure on black's position.
  
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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #2 - 05/13/16 at 00:39:25
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Methodchess wrote on 02/29/16 at 02:38:38:
I would be interested to see if anyone can come up with a path to +/= for White somewhere after 5.Bf4.

Strictly speaking not me, but I'd still like to point out 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bf4.
  

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Re: Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
Reply #1 - 05/11/16 at 17:51:13
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Interesting, thanks for this post.
  
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Challenging 5.Bf4 from 4...Nbd7 QGD move-order
02/29/16 at 02:38:38
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In another thread I created regarding a query about the name of the 7...Nbd7 variation of the QGD, I mentioned in passing the line in the title of this thread, I'm interested to discuss this in more depth with any others that are knowledgeable of this line, or are interested in looking into it.

I like this following set-up used by Grachev and Zvjaginsev in particular but game I used below was from Jianu-Marin, 2014: 4...Nbd7 5.Bf4 dxc4 6.e3 Nb6 7.Bxc4 Nxc4 8.Qa4+ c6 9.Qxc4 Nd5 now there are several options but will just show most testing: 10.Bg3 Qb6 11.Qe2 Bb4 12.0-0 Nxc3 13.bxc3 Bxc3 14.Rab1 Qd8= there is a game that reached this position Jianu-Marin 2014 that ended in a Black win.

The alternatives on move 10 for White seem to be 10.Rc1, 10.0-0 and 10.Be5, all of which lead to nothing as well as far as I can tell. If anyone knows a path to +/= for White in this line I would be interested to see it. If not, this could force White players into abandoning 5.Bf4 from the 4...Nbd7 move-order and going back to 5.Bg5 which is more interesting to play imo.

Further to the above I also think the following line is worth considering as an alternative to 5...dxc4, instead play 5...c6 and we have the 5.Bg5 Semi-Slav position except the bishop is on f4 instead of g5 for White, and Black has the added move Nbd7. I'm not sure if this favours either side but I think this is an interesting line for further research as both Kramnik and Carlsen tried it out once each, both were blitz games played in 2014. Carlsen drew his against Grischuk in WCh blitz in Dubai, 2014. Kramnik lost against Aronian in Norway Blitz, 2014. I prefer the way Carlsen handled the position, although I prefer a different continuation to what Carlsen played in his game. I have included very brief analysis of 5...dxc4 and 5...c6 in pgn games below:





I would be interested to see if anyone can come up with a path to +/= for White somewhere after 5.Bf4. If not, hopefully we may see a return to 5.Bg5 in the future. I would rather play either of the two aforementioned lines as Black, than memorise the theory needed to play 4...Be7 5.Bf4. I also think both lines pass the "Carlsen test", by this I mean: I don't think Carlsen would accept a draw in either of these lines for Black.
  
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