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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6) (Read 16483 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #4 - 08/13/17 at 19:36:01
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I can add one small thing about not knowing theory. While there are more theortical information available than ever before players  bellow elite leve know less and less concrete theory. I have met a several FM:s who has been out of book before move 7 in mainlines regardless of side.
If have only met 3 GMs but in each case I knew theory some move longer.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Statistics does not always show the correct evaluation of a line.
I can give an example from an other opening with equal material that several books for black recommened where all engines thinks dead equal while in practical  play white scores 61% in databases. It could be that in practical over the board games whites position is easier to handle when one is out of book.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #3 - 08/12/17 at 22:20:46
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Understood, and it is interesting to do this sort of analysis.  It's always been a little mysterious to me, though: a new repertoire book is published, everyone memorizes all of these new lines, and then...they don't appear on the board!  We can drive ourselves a little bit crazy trying to figure out what's going on.  

Speaking for the dozen or so 2300+ rated people I've known well enough in person to have these conversations with (strong USCF masters, FMs, and IMs), I think that it boils down to something like this.  Many of those players have put their repertoires together on their own, analyzing games from databases and various sources, working with another strong player, etc.  They have a lot of confidence in the work they did (in "their own" theory), and they don't care too much what some random new repertoire book says.  Some of them, I was surprised, seemed unaware of what new opening books were proposing!  They just work on their openings differently than many club players do.  

Also, I have been surprised at how many FMs and IMs simply seemed to know less theory than me at times, and forgotten their theory or prep.  In lines I know well (the Catalan, the 6.Bg5 Samisch King's Indian), it's happened pretty often that I know more theory than even an IM!  Unfortunately while it's helpful to know a lot of theory, I've realized that it's usually only enough to shift the evaluation of the game slightly in your favor--from equal to slight edge for you, for instance--and there's still a lot of work to do once the opening ends.

It really is fairly common for adult stronger players to forget their exact preparation (I'm not talking about 2600+ GMs here, but it even happens there).  It doesn't seem to hold them back, though; they are better at tactics than we are, and endgame play, and maybe understand their pet variations better than we do and are able to "wing it" better, etc.  Memorizing a lot of theory seems to be more the domain of younger, improving players, those in the 1800 - 2200 range or so.  I think that somewhere around 2300, players start caring less about published "theory," or they think about it differently than the rest of us, or they do more work to come up with their own ideas, or they disagree with some assessments, etc.  

Anyway, all of that only touches on one particular part of your original post, but it's interesting to me.  

It's also interesting to note that it was Black who was deviating much more often.  I'd dig in a little to see if those same Black players were making the same deviations in more than one game; that would give a clue about whether they were using their preparation or just winging things.
  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #2 - 08/12/17 at 21:58:23
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/12/17 at 17:47:38:
[quote author=6E6A6A390 link=1502539894/0#0 date=1502539894] 

Anyhow, I would suggest that you not over-think some of this.  It's interesting, but just because someone is rated 2420 does not mean that they have perfect recollection or have specialized in a particular system, or were not caught-out by a particular opponent or move order.  Some of those Black players probably simply forgot the theoretical continuation and were not trying to surprise White per se.    

I don't have a particularly good point, but I think that for us weaker club players, it's a good reminder that there is a lot of chess to be played and a bigger scope for our own ideas than looking at all the latest theory might have us believe.


I take your generalization about strong players not necessarily knowing (or remembering) theory which is certainly plausible in some cases.  I still recall the post you made many years ago (2010?) where you shared how quickly you were "out of book" in your previous 12 OTB games.  However, that wasn't really the main point of my post.   

Most of the benefit I derived from this was from personally analyzing every single one of the losses and understanding where Black went astray.  Since I can't post all the details, an interesting summary observation for me was that Black was most often the one varying from main line theory rather than White and in many cases that put them under pressure in an inferior position.  Generally I would expect it to be the opposite since French players tend to be specialists and the main lines in the 3...Nf6 Tarrasch are somewhat "narrow".   

Another helpful observation was that I couldn't find anything  theoretically suspect about the 3...Nf6 line even though it is not as popular or successful lately.  This was personally encouraging for me since I find the popular 3...c5 lines to be more drawish than I like.  My view is that the main ideal of opening knowledge is to get you to a playable middlegame which you like and hopefully understand a little better than your opponent!


  
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Re: Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
Reply #1 - 08/12/17 at 17:47:38
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WSS wrote on 08/12/17 at 12:11:34:

I compared the losses suffered by Black to the recommendations in Berg’s repertoire to see where the games varied.  After looking at the 28 losses by Black in the 3…Nf6 line, it is interesting to note that:
•      Black chooses to vary from the recommendations in Berg’s repertoire by move 11 in 82% (23/28) of the games.  
•      Only one White win, Artemiev-Onischuk follows Berg’s “absolute main line” after 5.Bd3 and Black varies by failing to execute the thematic French exchange sacrifice 16…Rxf3 and suffers with an inferior position.
        


I'm always a little amused at how rank-and-file club players (I mean 1600 - 2200, certainly there are some FMs and IMs that consider themselves amateur "club players") are so worried about theory, or their opponents' knowing a ton of theory.  At higher (but not elite) levels, all of those amateur FMs and IMs are going about their lives, playing chess as usual, not worrying too much about the latest repertoire book.  

Anyhow, I would suggest that you not over-think some of this.  It's interesting, but just because someone is rated 2420 does not mean that they have perfect recollection or have specialized in a particular system, or were not caught-out by a particular opponent or move order.  Some of those Black players probably simply forgot the theoretical continuation and were not trying to surprise White per se.  

On the other hand, many stronger players have "their own theory" and their own ideas about how things should be played that they've developed over the years, and are not going to change all of their ideas because a new book comes out (no matter how good it is).  Sometimes they're happy to see a different recommendation that White has to deal with, while they just continue playing their same old stuff!  

I don't have a particularly good point, but I think that for us weaker club players, it's a good reminder that there is a lot of chess to be played and a bigger scope for our own ideas than looking at all the latest theory might have us believe.
  
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Trends in the French Tarrasch (especially 3...Nf6)
08/12/17 at 12:11:34
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A few months ago I did an analysis of recent trends in the Tarrasch and thought I'd share some summary observations since it's been quiet on the forum.  I looked at which variations for Black versus the French Tarrasch are currently (2016-Mar 2017) most popular among strong players (rated 2400+) and how the various tries for Black holding up in competition?   
I looked at 533 games from the position after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 that were played between January 2016 and March 2017 where both player’s rating was greater than 2400.

Initial Observations:
•      Overall White scored an impressive 57.5% with the French Tarrasch winning 179 games, drawing 255 games and losing 99 games in my sample.
•      This compares favorably with White’s overall performance after 1.e4: 53.2% or versus the French in general 1.e4 e6: 53.8% from that same database.  Indeed the Tarrasch was the highest scoring variation for White (including all ratings) even as compared to the more popular 3.Nc3.
  •      The 3…c5 variation has eclipsed all others in popularity for strong players of the Black pieces.  For the sample, 48.8% of Black players rated 2400+ chose 3…c5 versus similarly strong opponents.  This was followed by 3…Be7 (16.3%), 3…Nf6 (12.4%) and 3…dxe5 (8.1%).  Somewhat surprisingly the Guimard 3..Nc6 came in fifth at 7.3% followed by 3…a6 (3.3%) and the eccentric but lovable 3…h6 (2.4%).

  The 3…Nf6 line has been a perennial favorite receiving recommendations from John Watson in PTF4 and Emanuel Berg in GM16.  I was curious why it has slipped to third in popularity and is scoring the most poorly (aside from the Guimard)? 
I compared the losses suffered by Black to the recommendations in Berg’s repertoire to see where the games varied.  After looking at the 28 losses by Black in the 3…Nf6 line, it is interesting to note that:
•      Black chooses to vary from the recommendations in Berg’s repertoire by move 11 in 82% (23/28) of the games.   
•      Only one White win, Artemiev-Onischuk follows Berg’s “absolute main line” after 5.Bd3 and Black varies by failing to execute the thematic French exchange sacrifice 16…Rxf3 and suffers with an inferior position.
•      It seems as though Black frequently tries rare sidelines in order to surprise White but this contributes to his downfall.

In summary, it appears that Black is often the cause of his own undoing by deviating from the recommended 3...Nf6 lines.   The variation as a whole remains sound and would score much better for Black if these decisions were avoided.

I hope this is interesting / helpful to the forum members and stimulates more discussion.  This forum was particularly influential when I returned to OTB chess a number of years ago so I'll always be grateful to the members, administrators and Tony for making it possible.
  
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