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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 46637 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #98 - 09/05/22 at 00:14:23
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Here's a fun problem to solve, if your in the mood. What should black play in the following position:

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« Last Edit: 09/05/22 at 02:55:29 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #97 - 08/03/22 at 18:02:51
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Equipped with an engine, the Exchange lines always looked okay for me. Over the board, I always felt that White has the much easier game if Black doesn't remember the move order move by move. 
Annoying stuff but objectively definitely okay.
  

Came back to chess after a long break
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MartinC
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #96 - 07/28/22 at 07:45:59
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I would think so Smiley Especially in terms of bashing people flat with computers - they're capable of drawing even the most outlandish things!
  
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TonyRo
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #95 - 07/27/22 at 14:23:08
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Haha, I'm sorry!  Cheesy

Perhaps we all need to look at White preparation more like hippies: it's all equal man, so just do what you love.  Cool
  
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MNb
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #94 - 07/27/22 at 06:24:54
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My compliment this time is sort of negative. As I've turned to 1.d4 you've added another annoying problem for constructing my repertoire. Weren't it for the Lasker I'd play 4.Bg5.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #93 - 07/26/22 at 17:08:41
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Glad you guys enjoyed the video and found it helpful. That's definitely the best part of making videos like that - when you get a comment or someone telling you they are using your ideas successfully and it's making an impact (however small) on their game. Grin
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #92 - 05/10/22 at 22:06:13
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/10/22 at 19:46:07:
....

There are for sure better lines (I suppose), but Tony's line is a practical good solution. Some distraction in the queenside and Knight arriving to the center (Ne6), plus it's not easy to advance e4 quickly (impatience is a common mistake at my level)... makes this a practical good solution.

We'll see how it goes, because there is Murphy Law that says that the more you prepare a line, the less you get it on the board  Wink

In fact, I am rethinking all my rep (with White also) and playing this lines again as White will get me more prepared on them. I am trying some English lines in the 1.c4 e5 complex and there are lines I don't like (more than one). Time to get back to d4-c4 maybe!
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #91 - 05/10/22 at 19:46:07
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CanadianClub wrote on 05/08/22 at 18:23:00:
I plan to use the recommendation by TonyRo in his youtube video.


He did an excellent job in his video, and indeed the line looks good. The video also includes a link to his analysis on lichess.

My only hesitation was in playing ...h6 against the Nge2 system. I was already familiar with the Nge2 system without ...h6 and was not sure I wanted to throw ...h6 Bh4 into the mix. 

I reviewed the video again. After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. Nge2 a5 11. O-O Na6 12. a3 Nc7 (if it gets this far!), Tony provides good answers to the logical, human-type moves, 13f3, 13Rad1, and 13Na4.

Stockfish suggests 13Bg3 instead. After looking at it some, I've concluded that SF is stalling. With no way to improve it's position, it finds a move that does not make things worse. However, it's not clear how, or if, black can improve his position either.

Still, the game goes on and one must find moves. Perhaps something like might ensue:

13. Bg3 Bd6 14. h3 Bg3 15. Ng3 Ne6 16. b4 Qd6 17. b5 c5 18. Nf5 Qf8 19. dc5 Nc5. I can't see that either side has made much progress. Black has kept the balance. One can chalk this up as a victory for black, as long as he willing to improvise over the chess board.
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #90 - 05/08/22 at 18:23:00
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I plan to use the recommendation by TonyRo in his youtube video. It seems convincing to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fyqHUTARXic

Nothing totally new but well presented and written in the study.

I like the Alatortsev option (following Colovic LTR work there). As a QGD exchange player myself having good results with it, the Be7 lines are fresh (and totally new to me) and it would be a normal follow up too.

Thanks Tony ( you'll read this for sure Smiley )
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #89 - 05/06/22 at 19:06:46
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/16/22 at 23:32:43:
The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout. 

Once I got the actual book, I saw I erred in inferring from the sample pages that Countering the Queen's Gambit had a single column format.  Only parts of a few pages are laid out in this manner.  It looks like the higher page count in this English translation is mainly due to New in Chess adding more diagrams.  For example, the chapter on 4.Nf3 a6 has 14 diagrams in the original German edition.  There's nearly twice as many (27) in Countering the Queen's Gambit.  

One other difference between the two versions:  Prusikin refers to 1.Nc3 as "Der Linksspringer" in Das Damengambit since he thought it was a clever name.  In Countering the Queen's Gambit, it's called the Dunst Opening.
« Last Edit: 05/07/22 at 00:03:57 by Nernstian59 »  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #88 - 04/12/22 at 20:15:04
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GM Tan gives the following sequence in ChessPublishing December 2021:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Bg3!? Re8 10. Nf3 Nh5 11. Be5! Nd7 12. O-O Nhf6 13. Rc1 Ne5 14. Ne5 Bd6 15. f4 Be6 16. Kh1

Here's another move order to the same position:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 h6 9. Bh4 c6 10. Bg3! Nh5 11. Be5 Nd7 12. O-O Nhf6!? 13. Rc1 Ne5 14. Ne5 Bd6 15. f4 Be6 16. Kh1

GM Tan states, "I believe White has some decent practical chances in this structure."

I have no disagreement there, though black could try 16...c5 17Qf3 and now 17...cxd or 17...a6.

However, I suggest that black vary with 13...Bb4. Now White can play 14h3 to retreat the bishop, forcing black's hand to take. Here are some lines that suggest dynamic equality:

13. Rc1 Bb4 14. h3 Ne5 15. Ne5 c5 16. f4 cd4 17. ed4 Be6 18. Qf3 Qb6
and
13. Rc1 Bb4 14. h3 Ne5 15. Ne5 c5 16. f4 cd4 17. ed4 Ba5 18. a3 Bb6 19. Bb1 Bd7 20. Qd3 and now 20...Bc6 or the seemingly suicidal 20...Rc8 inviting the piece sacrifice 21.Nd5!?
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #87 - 03/18/22 at 19:57:03
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RoleyPoley wrote on 03/17/22 at 12:06:22:
Thanks for this. I'm interested to see how good it is. I don't have much experience of the QGD, and feel I should learn more about it.

You're welcome.  As you probably noticed from the Table of Contents shown in the sample pages, nearly the first third of the book covers typical pawn structures and ideas, which should be helpful in learning more about the QGD.  Keep in mind that the book offers a repertoire for Black with the Tartakower variation as the recommendation for meeting 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5.  Thus, there's no coverage of the Orthodox or Lasker variations.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #86 - 03/17/22 at 12:06:22
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/16/22 at 23:32:43:
"Countering the Queen's Gambit" by Prusikin (see my post #83) was just released by New in Chess.  A quick comparison of the earlier German edition to the sample pages given for this English version suggests the latter is a straight translation.  The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout. 

The only addition in the English version that I've found so far is Prusikin's statement in his Foreword that he used MegaBase 2021, ChessBase's Correspondence Database, and Stockfish 13 for reference and analysis.  Interestingly, a few paragraphs before this, Prusikin mentions that the eponymous Netflix series was his inspiration for writing a book on the Queen's Gambit.


Thanks for this. I'm interested to see how good it is. I don't have much experience of the QGD, and feel I should learn more about it. I've also got a daughter who is interested in learning to play chess so I might pick this up to use along with Emms' book on e4/e5 fore both of us.

Not surprised about the QG show being an inspiration for this, it's being used by a number of people/organisations within chess to promote the game or their products.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #85 - 03/16/22 at 23:32:43
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"Countering the Queen's Gambit" by Prusikin (see my post #83) was just released by New in Chess.  A quick comparison of the earlier German edition to the sample pages given for this English version suggests the latter is a straight translation.  The page count for the English volume is higher, possibly due the use of a single column format.  The German edition used a double column layout.   

The only addition in the English version that I've found so far is Prusikin's statement in his Foreword that he used MegaBase 2021, ChessBase's Correspondence Database, and Stockfish 13 for reference and analysis.  Interestingly, a few paragraphs before this, Prusikin mentions that the eponymous Netflix series was his inspiration for writing a book on the Queen's Gambit.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #84 - 01/09/22 at 18:35:29
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1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 c6 9. Qc2
This position can be reached by various move orders. It is robust, playable against 1c4 as well as 1d4, and does not commit to an early Be7 or Bb4 in non-exchange lines. I don't see how White can "move order" black out of this position without playing a different system, for example Ne2 instead of Nf3.

9...h6!? 10. Bf4!? Be6!?
This position has only been seen in a few games.
11. O-O Nbd7 12. h3 (12Rab1 Nh4) a6!? and now for example:

13. Rab1 (minority attack) Rc8 14. b4 b5 15. a4 Nb6 16. a5 Nc4, the position is at least equal for black.

White could also play in the center.
13Ne5 Rc8 14. Rad1 c5!? 15. Nd7 Qd7 16. dc5 Bc5 17. Qb1 Qe7 18. Ne2 Bd7 19. Nd4 Ne4 and again black is doing well.

The general approach for black after ...h6 Bf4 is to play ...Be6 followed by queen side expansion. Someone may have mentioned it before on this forum, in which case I apologize in advance for the lack of attribution.

I have not been able to find many human games. Sometimes Stockfish tends to meander as white. For example playing Rad1 and following up with Rc1. As with people meandering, I take this as an indication that no positive sequence (computer) or plan (human) has been found. Stockfish may continue to claim an advantage for white, until it recalibrates. Meanwhile, black has a solid game and a plan of queen-side expansion.
  
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