TD wrote on 01/21/22 at 07:51:29:


I suppose I should feel good that I stumbled upon their repertoire! Is this part of a general English vs. Dutch repertoire, or specifically against this particular (1c4 e6, etc.) move order?

As I recall there were few human games. My engine seemed as confused as any person would be. "Unclear" seems a safe description.

If I were a Dutch player, I'm not sure that I would give it up because of the English vs. Dutch. However the lines are tricky and could benefit from study.

FreeRepublic wrote on 01/20/22 at 23:16:13:

Or 5.d4 as in the Stonewall the bishop is better on d6.

MNb wrote on 01/20/22 at 18:43:56:


Interesting. I realized that there are English vs. Dutch lines that are unique, but I am not familiar with them. Black has not committed to either the ...Bb4 or ...d5 at this point.

I suppose play might continue something like this:
1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 f5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. d3 O-O 6. e4 fe4 7. de4 Nc6

TD wrote on 01/20/22 at 14:00:19:


Thanks for the information.

I also looked at the ChessPublishing information available to me:
4...Bb4
"The standard move, whereupon White hasn't found a way to retain an advantage."

The Stonewall approach also gets a positive mention. After move 5...d5:
"and only now ...d5 as White has already settled on a sensible, but not that troubling, fianchetto set-up."

I don't play the Dutch defense, so I really do not have a feel for it. However the comments from experienced Dutch players about these two positions (with an early ...Bb4, or with the Stonewall) is encouraging.

1c4 e6 2Nc3 f5 may be an attractive way to play the Dutch Defense. If white plays 2d4 instead, Black might prefer to switch off to 2...Nf6 with a possible Nimzo-Indian defense.

In the following sequence:

1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 f5 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nf3

White develops his queen knight early. Is there any way for black to take advantage of Nc3?

Nc3 is part of the main-line Dutch with ...d6, so I'd simply expect a transposition there.

Stockfish suggests 4...Bb4. This gives a Nimzo-Indian touch to the position. While this might seem good, I remain skeptical.

In the Stonewall, white often prefers to play such moves as b3 with Ba3, or Nbd2, over playing Nc3. So, let's play on:

1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 f5 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. g3 O-O 6. Bg2 d5 7. O-O c6

Is this a better than average Stonewall for black, or just more of the same? Does it matter?

Which book is the better the one written by Sedlak og Pavlovic? It could be quite interesting to play the Stonewall once in a while. I have seen that Brabo is a bit worried about the soundness of the system now.

As I see it, it has often had a rather bad reputation but until recently it seems to have survived. In Rios' excellent book Chess Structures, he also writes that he originally wanted to write a chapter about refuting the Stonewall but had to accept that it is a sound system...

Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/22/21 at 00:06:06:

Correct; so 10...d5 and it's difficult for White to turn the lead in development into something concrete. Perhaps a minority attack with 11.cxd5 exd5 12.b4 c6 13.Rfc1, but that allows moving Nb8 to c4 .....

Btw in the old line 7...d6 (iso 7...Ne4) 8.Nc3 (or 8.O-O if White has played Nc3 earlier) Qe8 9.Qc2 Qh5 (said to be good for Black with the bishop on c1) White has 10.Bf4! (10.e4 e5 equalizes) Nc6 11.Rad1. White's plan is to play d4-d5 or e2-e4 in favourable circumstances:  I don't see how Black can equalize.

FInally 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 O-O 7.Nf3 (or 7.Bg2) d6 8.Nc3/8.O-O Nc6 9.d5 Ne5 looks OK for Black indeed. White's best try might be 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.Rd1 Ne4 10.Qc2 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 Qf6 12.O-O with a slight lead in development. Again proving something tangible is not easy.

Thanks, I'll look at these 5...Bxd2+ lines later.

Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/20/21 at 23:29:27:

My favourite at the moment is 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 O-O 7.O-O Ne4 8.Nc3 Bf6 because of 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Ne5 d6 11.Ng4 (+= or more with the bishop on c1) Bxd4 (impossible with the bishop on c1). You might take a look at Nogueiras-Murey, Luzern 1982.