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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf (Read 3741 times)
cathexis
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #13 - 11/11/21 at 12:04:23
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It's too bad we can't enter a search string into the engine with the command: "At this position: Search always for black's best reply, but ignore losing and drawing lines for white. For white, search only for winning lines. Infinite analysis."

Make sure your PC has the latest AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3995WX 2.7 GHz 64-Core sWRX8 Processor (64 cores! IIRC, Stockfish can handle 64 cores. Only U.S. $5,399,99 - plus needed heat sink, board, etc.)
Than go visit your poor old mum for the weekend and come back later to check.  Grin
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #12 - 11/11/21 at 08:53:49
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Syzygy wrote on 11/10/21 at 20:00:13:
After 2. Nc3 d6 I would probably recommend 3. Nge2 with the idea of steering into a Closed Sicilian (h3, f4 plan) with Black's kingside knight committed to f6. Computers call it equal but can also slightly underestimate White's kingside attacking chances.


Than you, syzygy.
Yes, I'm still analyzing this, it's not so easy to evaluate.

Syzygy wrote on 11/10/21 at 20:00:13:
In the Moscow with ...Nd7 perhaps 4. a4!? would be of interest to you? It's not as thoroughly explored as the other options and seems to score well in recent (OTB) play (i.e. I'm thinking of 4...Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2!).


That was indeed my Moscow-favorite in the last months  Wink But today I'm not happy with the resulting positions after 4.a4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 (6.Bc4 Qa5!=) g6! 7.o-o Bg7 8.a5! o-o 9.d3 b5 10.axb6 Nxb6! (often followed by a5-a4).

Syzygy wrote on 11/10/21 at 20:00:13:
In the actual Najdorf an interesting sixth move alternative is 6. Bd3!? as played by e.g. Anand in recent times. The idea is to 6...e5 7. Nde2 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Ng3 Be6 10. Nd5! looking for a small positional advantage and/or kingside play. If Black tries the fianchetto with 6...g6 White can immediately pivot to a Yugoslav set-up with 7. f3!, which is not trivial to meet.


Also funny coincidence, that is one of my actual projects  Smiley But after your moves I'm actually checking 10...Nxd5!? 11.exd5 Bxd5 12.Bxh7+ Kxh7 13.Qxd5 Nc6... First it looks very nice for white, but then, move by move, is disillusiones me... But there is still a lot to discover
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #11 - 11/11/21 at 08:36:26
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MNb wrote on 11/10/21 at 19:14:55:
The simple, unpleasant fact is that 1.e4 c5 is equal. Especially in corr. chess (and certainly at 2400+ level) it's extremely hard to pick a choice.


cathexis wrote on 11/10/21 at 23:46:30:
But if MNb is right that 1.e4 c5 is equal it seems to lead to the question: How best for white to play when there is no advantage to be had? (which maybe was your question in the first place  Wink ).
By which, maybe I'm also asking is this considered immutable? Or a deficiency in current theory?


Yes... I have to say: I'm not at the point of giving up yet  Roll Eyes
I like to continue digging very deeply, especially in quite unknown variations, in search of the undiscovered treasure  Wink

I
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #10 - 11/10/21 at 23:46:30
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Gotcha Dobby and no probs, thanks.

But if MNb is right that 1.e4 c5 is equal it seems to lead to the question: How best for white to play when there is no advantage to be had? (which maybe was your question in the first place  Wink ).

By which, maybe I'm also asking is this considered immutable? Or a deficiency in current theory?
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #9 - 11/10/21 at 20:00:13
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After 2. Nc3 d6 I would probably recommend 3. Nge2 with the idea of steering into a Closed Sicilian (h3, f4 plan) with Black's kingside knight committed to f6. Computers call it equal but can also slightly underestimate White's kingside attacking chances.

In the Moscow with ...Nd7 perhaps 4. a4!? would be of interest to you? It's not as thoroughly explored as the other options and seems to score well in recent (OTB) play (i.e. I'm thinking of 4...Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2!).

In the actual Najdorf an interesting sixth move alternative is 6. Bd3!? as played by e.g. Anand in recent times. The idea is to 6...e5 7. Nde2 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Ng3 Be6 10. Nd5! looking for a small positional advantage and/or kingside play. If Black tries the fianchetto with 6...g6 White can immediately pivot to a Yugoslav set-up with 7. f3!, which is not trivial to meet.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #8 - 11/10/21 at 19:14:55
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In fact, if Black is well prepared, White must be careful not to get lured into a difficult position. I'm thinking of 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 e6 6.Nf3 d6 7.Bc3 Be7 8.O-O O-O 9.Qe2 Bd7,  7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qc7 and 7.a3 Bd7. 2...Nf6 is equal of course, but White hasn't done well at all.
The simple, unpleasant fact is that 1.e4 c5 is equal. Especially in corr. chess (and certainly at 2400+ level) it's extremely hard to pick a choice.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #7 - 11/10/21 at 15:05:58
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cathexis wrote on 11/10/21 at 14:49:41:
Are you saying that if white enters the Alapin black can still compel white instead to play the Najdorf?


cathexis wrote on 11/10/21 at 14:49:41:
So, are you saying the Alapin offers no *advantage* ? Or that black can *compel* the Najdorf, even if white tries to enter the Alapin?


Dear cathexis,

sorry for not making myself clear  Undecided: I only meant, that after 2.c3 Nf6! I found no way to a white advantage, so that 2.c3 doesn't convince me.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #6 - 11/10/21 at 14:49:41
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Quote:
2.c3 Nf6! Is well known and I found no way


Please excuse a novice question, for my enlightenment only:

Are you saying that if white enters the Alapin black can still compel white instead to play the Najdorf?  Here are 2 other brief, partial quotes (with my emphasis) from your 1st post:

1. Quote:
I found no way/advantage against it.


2. Quote:
Now I tried different ways to avoid the Najdorf…


So, are you saying the Alapin offers no *advantage* ? Or that black can *compel* the Najdorf, even if white tries to enter the Alapin?  Again, no 'dis to you. Just hungry for knowledge. If my questions are not clear I can offer this quote from Sveshnikov's own recent book, "Sveshnikov vs. the Anti-Sicilians" pg.8 ;

Quote:
E) 2.c3. This solid move is the second or third strongest after 2 .Nf3 . I myself have
played this regularly since the mid- l970s and recently produced a substantial book
on it. Of course, there is not much sense in repeating myself, but so the reader can
get a complete repertoire against all White's ways of avoiding the main lines, in this
book I present a relatively recent and quite good new continuation for Black.
I suggest the most solid plan 2 ... Nf6!, which gives Black equal play. Admittedly,
he needs to know quite a lot, and I have no desire to copy out my earlier book, so I
have limited myself to the most important games and variations. The critical position
arises after 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nf3 4Jc6 6.cxd4 d6 7.Bc4.{also in the same paragraph,..}
In the earlier book, I analyzed 7 . . . Nb6 ! , which is the strongest move, requiring
deep knowledge from both players. In this new work, I recommend the more forcing
7. ..dxe5 ! ? , where Black also gradually equalizes.


So, he seems to say black can equalize after 2.c3, but not that there is "advantage" for black, or that he can still compel the Najdorf regardless.

And BTW, if I have made a colossal novice mistake, my apologies in advance.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #5 - 11/10/21 at 14:02:41
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Nothing much to add really Smiley I can see why you're put off a bit by now! Well buried some of this stuff but very annoyingly concrete.

I do think 12 Re1 is basically doing its intended job of getting a long term interesting, non forcing position. No real advantage of course.
(If nothing else white has 13.. b5 14 Nce2, Nc1 etc.).

That or trying to make something work after 12 Qf2 I suppose.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #4 - 11/10/21 at 12:49:35
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MartinC wrote on 11/10/21 at 10:13:30:
Is there any mileage in 12 Be2, 12 Re1 or 12 Nge2 Bg4 13 Qd3? Those seem to be LC0's main ideas for trying to slow things down.


My current option:


e) 12.Be2 b5!? (I like this idea for black...) 13.Nxb5 Nxe4 14.Qe3 Bb7 (or even 14...Nxc2!? 15.Qxe4 Bf5 16.Qxf5 gxf5 17.Kxc2 Qb6 18.Kb1 Qb7 19.Nh3 Qg2) 15.Nxd4 Qb6 16.Bb5 exd4 17.Qxd4 Qxd4 18.Bxd4 Nd2+ 19.Rxd2 Re1+ 20.Kb2 Bxh1

f) 12.Re1 Bd7!? (again with the idea b5!) 13.Bg2 b5 and now e.g. 14.Nf3 b4 15.Nxd4 bxc3 16.Bxc3 a5!?

and again
a) 12. Nge2 Bg4! and now 13.Qd3: e.g. 13...Bg7 14.h3 Bf3 15.Rh2 exf4 16.Nxd4 Bxd1 17.Qxd1 Nxe4 18.gxf4 Nxc3+ 19. Bxc3 Rc8 20.Bb2 Qh4

I look forward to further suggestions  Smiley
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #3 - 11/10/21 at 10:13:30
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Well, you're definitely ahead of the book (as I suspected!).

Fascinating Q sacrifice after 12 Qf2 b5 Smiley I'd have vaguely thought that imbalance would offer both sides a good chance to catch someone over dependent on a computer out, but maybe not these days!

Is there any mileage in 12 Be2, 12 Re1 or 12 Nge2 Bg4 13 Qd3? Those seem to be LC0's main ideas for trying to slow things down.
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #2 - 11/10/21 at 09:52:25
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MartinC wrote on 11/10/21 at 09:14:11:
After 11 Kb1 Nd4, Leela seems to think white has a mass of plausible options, although I'm sure a few will transpose. It definitely isn't a very forcing position.


Thank you  Smiley

I'd like to share here some appetizers after 11.Kb1 Nd4... It looks exciting but black has very dynamic opportunities as white is vulnerable at e4/f4:

a)      12.Nge2 Bg4! 13.Bg2 (13.Nxd4 exd4 14.Qxd4 Bg7 15.Rc1 Nxe4 16.Qxg7+ Kxg7 17.Nxe4+ Kf8 18.Nf6 and now I found no way after Bf5/Bf3/h5) Nxe2!? (13…Bg7!?) 14.Nxe2 exf4 15.Rde1 Bxe2 16. Qxe2 Nxe4
b)      12.Qf2 b5!? (or 12…Bg4) 13.fxe5 (13.Nge2 b4 14.Nd5 Nxe4) dxe5 14.Bxb5 Nxb5 15.Rxd8 Nxc3+ 16.Bxc3 Rxd8 17.Qe1 Nxe4 18.Ba5 Nd2+ 19.Kb2 Bb7 20.Bxd8 Rxd8
c)      12.Bg2 Bg4 13.Re1 (13.Nge2 is a)) b5! 14.h3 Bd7 15.Nce2 Nxe2 16.Nxe2 Bc6)
d)      12.Qg2 Bg4 13.Be2  Nxe2 14.Nxe2 exf4 15.gxf4 Bxe2 16.Nxe2 Nxe4 17.Ng3 d5
  
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Re: Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
Reply #1 - 11/10/21 at 09:14:11
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Plenty of exciting ways, surely Smiley A genuine advantage would be more of a surprise!

That first deviation (Qxd4/Qd2) is what Jones has in Coffee House repertoire 1 - the resulting position after 10.. Re8 looks pretty tense/rich to me at a glance, so maybe keep looking there?

After 11 Kb1 Nd4, Leela seems to think white has a mass of plausible options, although I'm sure a few will transpose. It definitely isn't a very forcing position.
  
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Anti-Sicilian to avoid Najdorf
11/10/21 at 08:14:16
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Hello folks,

as white, my biggest challenge is to play against the Najdorf, because after some years of practice and thorough analysis (also the rare 6th moves) I think it’s the best and dynamic answer for black and I found no way/advantage against it.

So after 1.e4 c5 I searches an “anti-sicilian”-way for me (corr-chess > 2400 iccf) to avoid the najdorf.

I analysed (and used books/videos…) a lot and found:
•      In the Moscow (2.Sf3 d6 3.Lb5+) I found nothing against 3…Nd7! after a long, longway of suffering…
•      2.Sf3 d6 3.c3 (Nf6) is to harmless
•      2.c3 Nf6! Is wellknown and I found no way
•      2.f4 d5!

So 2.Nc3 seems to be my way. Now I tried different ways to avoid the Najdorf…
I found that 2…d6! therefore seems to be the most unpleasant move for me.

Now:
•      3.d4 cd 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qd2 is often recommended and played, but after 5…g6 6.b3 Bh6! 7.f4 Nf6! 8.Bb2 o-o 9.o-o-o e5 10.g3 Re8!= I found nothing for white… ☹
•      3.f4 (Grand-Prix-Attack) g6! 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5+ (e.g.) Bd7 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.o-o e6 there are nice ideas for white, but the reality in thorough analysis is different – no way found…
•      3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 Nc6/g6 leads to a dragon (with whites fianchetto, boring) or a closed sicilian
•      3.Nf3 Nf6! And what should white do…?

I look forward to a high-quality discussion, where I’m maybe wrong or if we have to accept, that there are no more exciting and healthy ways against 1.e4 c5!...
  
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