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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) New product advocates old line vs. Exchange (Read 1477 times)
kylemeister
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #19 - 03/20/26 at 16:40:07
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/16/26 at 23:45:52:
Perhaps "post-up" has something to do with the knight occuplying a forward outpost?

I would think so.

A couple more old book bits are that the line (which I see in the sample of the Modern Chess product) 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Be7 7. e3 Nbd7 8. Bd3 0-0 9. Nf3 Re8 10. 0-0 Nf8 11. h3 Be6 12. Ne5 N6d7 13. Bxe7 was given as slightly better for White in NCO (1999, same year as the Yermo book) and as unclear in ECO (2004).
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #18 - 03/16/26 at 23:45:52
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kylemeister - Thanks for sharing that bit of information. I've seen the term "post-up" used in a basketball context, but not in chess. A quick look of the section on the Exchange QGD  in my copy of Road to Chess Improvement didn't find any explanation by Yermolinsky for why he used it, although he did point out that Pillsbury was the first to come up with the plan of Nf3-e5 and f2-f4 followed by a rook lift to f3 and then h3. Perhaps "post-up" has something to do with the knight occuplying a forward outpost?
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #17 - 03/15/26 at 17:58:59
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...or even by the same author  Smiley
  

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FreeRepublic
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #16 - 03/15/26 at 14:04:45
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/15/26 at 03:05:10:
I seem to recall other authors have used the approach of taking what an engine evaluates as an equal position from the Black repertoire and saying that White has easier play or better practical chances in that position.

Sometimes I think authors reach a tabiya position where either side has chances. By way of illustration, let's say that white has an isolated queen pawn with freer play. That position could be advocated for white by one author, and for black by another author. They are both right!
  
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kylemeister
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #15 - 03/15/26 at 10:05:03
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Nernstian59 wrote on 03/15/26 at 03:05:10:
Instead of going for the common QGD Exchange Variation plans of the minority attack or the central advance with f3 + e4, the recommendations for both are Nf3-e5 + f2-f4, which seems a bit reminiscent of the Pillsbury Attack.

I seem to recall that Alex Yermolinsky in his "Road to Chess Improvement" book from about 27 years ago called that plan "the post-up."
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #14 - 03/15/26 at 03:05:10
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kylemeister wrote on 03/14/26 at 13:45:38:
I notice that there is now a product for White at Modern Chess.

kylemeister - That new product caught my eye as well. Perhaps Dirk's jest about "championing this stuff from the white side once again" is indeed taking place! 

I compared the sample from Chapter 5 of GMs Moroni and Basso's new database with the relevant section of Semkov's Squeezing the QGD and found the analyses to be quite similar. Instead of going for the common QGD Exchange Variation plans of the minority attack or the central advance with f3 + e4, the recommendations for both are Nf3-e5 + f2-f4, which seems a bit reminiscent of the Pillsbury Attack. The Moroni/Basso product does seem rather more detailed based on my cursory look.

One other thing that I noticed: Moroni authored a Modern Chess database covering the QGD Exchange Variation for Black, which came out back in October. It recommended 5...Be6, so I'm wondering how he's going to handle his own Black repertoire in his newly released product. I seem to recall other authors have used the approach of taking what an engine evaluates as an equal position from the Black repertoire and saying that White has easier play or better practical chances in that position.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #13 - 03/14/26 at 21:44:39
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kylemeister wrote on 03/14/26 at 13:45:38:
I recall co-author Luca Moroni as being on the white side against Sabino Brunello a decade ago, a game which appeared in Chess Publishing as showing good play by Black.

Thanks! I looked it up the game and played through it. It was a good fighting game in the Nge2 main-line. I may go through it again later. I expect it will be addressed in their data base.

Many of these products have a video, on-line game board and text of each line, and pgn. It's a good thing too as occasionally there is a loss of fidelity.

I mostly work from the PGN after importing it to Chess Opening Wizard. Chessbase would work too. If I suspect a faulty import (rare), I go to the online board with text. Even there a mistake may occasionally occur. If in doubt, there's the video.

Sometimes, I'll start with the video for an overview, but it may be hard for me to keep up. Then I might go to the online game board and text. To archive the results on my own computer, I rely on the imported PGN.

I don't think I have ever had a PGN import error from ChessPublishing, the ChessBase Opening Encyclopedia, or ECO.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #12 - 03/14/26 at 13:45:38
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Dink Heckler wrote on 02/07/26 at 10:22:02:
I really wonder whether the pendulum has swung too far. In the 80s and 90s, we had a plethora of repertoire books overselling this stuff for White, and now we seem to have a plethora of repertoire courses probably overselling all this stuff for Black. 

Maybe there's now abnormal profits to be had championing this stuff from the white side once again  Smiley

I notice that there is now a product for White at Modern Chess. I recall co-author Luca Moroni as being on the white side against Sabino Brunello a decade ago, a game which appeared in Chess Publishing as showing good play by Black.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #11 - 02/12/26 at 00:55:10
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Speaking of the Catalan, I'll just mention that I also noticed something old there not long ago, though not something advocated in a product. A game between Nihal Sarin and Vidit Gujrathi at the Tata Steel India Rapid saw an old-school Closed Catalan: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. c4 e6 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O c6 7. Nbd2 b6 8. b3 Bb7 9. Bb2 Nbd7 10. Qc2 Rc8 11. Rad1 c5 12. Qb1 dxc4. Black's last move leaves the ancient orange ECO, which had 12...Qc7 from Keene-Matanovic, Berlin 1971.
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #10 - 02/12/26 at 00:24:37
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FreeRepublic - Thanks for pointing out the availability of Squeezing the QGD on ForwardChess. I'll definitely keep that in mind, though I'm sufficiently antiquated to prefer the printed version, at least for the moment. 

I like your Catalan example. You're correct - there were numerous White repertoires promising that real plus. Avurkh's 1.d4 Grandmaster Repertoire books for Quality Chess stand out in my memory in this respect. In more recent years, engine-assisted Black repertoires have neutralized the Catalan and pretty much all other White repertoires to the point where a claim of an objective edge isn't viewed as very creditable. Instead, the authors of the White repertoires have shifted to achieving more nebulous advantages such as providing White with greater familiarity with the resulting positions, posing practical difficulties than Black, or simply getting positions that are "easier" to play.
  
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #9 - 02/09/26 at 22:15:15
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Nernstian59 wrote on 02/08/26 at 23:48:25:
Squeezing the QGD by Semkov might be the start, though I'm having difficulties finding that book here in the US.

I have the eBook from ForwardChess:
https://forwardchess.com/product/squeezing-the-q-g-d?section=Products

I think it's very good and advances the debate.

The current situation with the exchange variation reminds a little of the Catalan a few years ago. First these systems are recommended for white as a way to get a real plus, and with merit.

Then multiple answers are found for black. Answers don't claim a refutation, but keep black in the game with chances. Which answer is best? In principle, examine all proposed answers and compare. Easier said than done.

For black, find a system that you like. For white, have some kind of answer to black's choice. It's ok if it is only equal as you will be on solid ground and your opponent may not be.
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #8 - 02/09/26 at 21:08:19
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kylemeister - Thanks for pointing out Davies' book! It's been languishing in my "To Be Read Someday" pile, so I was unaware it had the Timman-Yusupov game. I went through Davies' comments, and they're definitely are on point.

kylemeister wrote on 02/09/26 at 03:00:44:
in his Informant notes to the Yusupov game he gave 21...Nxe5 22. b3 Ba6 23. d6 as "with compensation."

It's a bit of overkill to check Timman's brief, 1995-vintage note with modern engines, but I see that his evaluation is rather modest. Stockfish considers White to be clearly winning after 23.d6. The passed d-pawn is a monster. Also, the engine prefers to play d5-d6 first and then b2-b3 since 22.b3 could be answered with 22...g5, which cuts down White's advantage a bit.
  
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #7 - 02/09/26 at 03:00:44
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Nernstian59 -- My comment about prep was just a supposition.

I see that Nigel Davies in his QGD Move by Move book from 2017 also gave 23...Qh4"!" as leading to equality. (I'm pretty sure I came across this before but had forgotten about it.)

Davies wrote that 21. d5"!?" was suggested by Timman. I see that in his Informant notes to the Yusupov game he gave 21...Nxe5 22. b3 Ba6 23. d6 as "with compensation."
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #6 - 02/08/26 at 23:48:25
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cathexis - I had a recent experience with AI that you might find amusing. It's OT relative to the QGD, so I'll create a separate thread.

Dink - Thanks for your observation. It explains why I'm experiencing a bit of cognitive whiplash from all of those courses presenting a variety of equalizing lines for Black. I must have retained a lingering impression from those 80s/90s repertoire books that recommended the Exchange Variation for White. Perhaps they emphasized Kasparov's success with the line (and possibly Botvinnik's earlier employment) to create the perception that it provided a sure edge for White. And you're right - I'm eagerly awaiting the White reaction to that plethora of repertoire courses for Black. Squeezing the QGD by Semkov might be the start, though I'm having difficulties finding that book here in the US. One book seller has informed me that he's still waiting for the distributor to deliver it.

kylemeister - I looked at Sjugirov-Yusupov, Qatar Masters 2014, and I agree it's possible that Sjugirov had something prepared for the game, which followed Timman-Yusupov through move 20. Sjugirov's 21.d5 is a pawn sac that's the one chance for advantage, so it could possibly be prep. However, only two moves later, his 23.d6 (instead of 23.h3) is tempting but an inaccuracy. Did his prep only go a move or two beyond the initial idea?

The diagrams in Reply #3 show the critical position after 23.d6. (I'm not sure of the poster's intent for the identical diagrams. Perhaps he wanted to also show the Sirota-Sander correspondence game, which arrived at the same position). At any rate, 23...Qh4 equalizes, but Yusupov's 23...Qg5 is met by 24.Ne4, gaining a vital tempo to bring the knight into the attack and obtaining a winning position. 

In going through the game with Stockfish, I got the impression that Yusupov was close to equal after a dozen moves, but wound up a bit worse due to reasonable-looking but sub-optimal moves such as 15...Ng6, 16...Bg5, and 19...Bc4, even before his error with 23...Qg5. If a player with Yusupov's skill and experience can slip into difficulties where a single false step can end in disaster, the "equal" position may present some practical difficulties for Black.
  
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cathexis
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Re: New product advocates old line vs. Exchange
Reply #5 - 02/07/26 at 15:06:38
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Or... the AI analysis books on it, an exciting new trend!
  
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