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C27-C30: Vienna, is this line so bad? (Read 26284 times)

ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #30 - 06/13/08 at 10:32:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch, when you gave that name: "Mirumian", I was a bit curious, then I looked at chesslive, in 21 games with 1.e4 e5, it's true that he lost only one time, the first game recorded of him, when he was U16! "Incredible" score of 16,5/21 (78,57%) with a supposed ~ theorically harmless. But it's true that against players of the same level or less, there is no reason to be worse and lose with that opening.


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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #29 - 06/08/08 at 10:38:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi, Busted is maybe to strong a comment I am not claiming any pluses for white and everything is relative to what level you play at ... I tend to play it as follows 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 0-0 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 c6 7.d4 Bb4 8.e5 Ne4 [8...d5 9.exf6 dxc4 10.fxg7 Re8+ 11.Kf2] 9.Nge2 One game I have in my database is: Rhenius,R - Unseld,Rolf [C27] Baden-Baden op Baden-Baden (7), 1987 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 0-0 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 c6 7.d4 Bb4 8.e5 Ne4 9.Nge2 Bxc3+ 10.Nxc3 Ng5 11.Qh5 Ne6 12.Be3 d5 13.exd6 Qxd6 14.0-0-0 Nf4 15.Qf3 Ng6 16.Ne4 Qb4 17.Bb3 a5 18.a3 Qb5 19.Nd6 Nh4 20.Qf2 Qh5 21.Nxc8 Rxc8 22.g4 Qxg4 23.Qxf7+ Kh8 24.Be6 Qe4 25.Bxc8 Qxe3+ 26.Kb1 h6 27.Rhg1 g5 28.Rge1 1-0 Regards


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #28 - 06/07/08 at 20:07:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: While it's true that variations with 5.Bg5 and 5.Nf3 are not quite as much fun, they don't really look that threatening to Black either. Still a good reason to prefer 4...c6 intending to transpose after 4...0-0.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #27 - 06/07/08 at 17:24:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 11/16/04 at 20:03:25: Yes its really me, your friendly neighbourhood Top just passing through. I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. What follows now is a copy of what I posted on the forum in another thread a few months ago that relates to the same topic. I trust it will prove enlightening. Quote: I noticed a few of you making reference to the line: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 as a favorable way to transpose to the Kings Gambit Declined for white. I am afraid this is no longer the case. While we are still on the topic of the Bishop's Opening, it gives me an excuse to show a line for black which is not considered by GM John Emms, in his recent and popular repertoire book 'Attacking with 1.e4'. In this book GM Emms recommends the Bishop's Opening, with the idea of using it to reach certain lines of the Kings Gambit declined, however the following obscure line in my opinion puts Emms proposed system out of business. Here is the key game, in which black a GM and reknowned Bishop's opening specialist himself, demolishes his unsuspecting opponent: [Event "Nordic Championships"] [Site "Bergen NOR"] [Date "2001.??.??"] [White "Miellet Bensan,Y"] [Black "Mitkov,N"] [Round "7"] [Result "0-1"] [WhiteElo "2243"] [BlackElo "2547"] [ECO "C25"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly] 5. f4?! [White does not care, he will stick to his predetermined mode of development come what may. Inflexibiilty in chess can be a fatal desease] 5...exf4 6. Bxf4 c6! [This is the second important idea, and the reason why black ommitted Nc6 earlier in favor of castles. Black makes ready to open up the centre quickly while the white king still resides there] 7. Bb3 [Anticipating the central advance, but it doesn't deter black in the least] d5! [Already black is better] 8. d4 Bb4 9. e5 Ne4 10. Qf3 Qh4+ 11. g3 Qg4 12. Qxg4 Bxg4 13. h3 Be6 14. Nge2 a5 15. a3 Bxc3+ 16. Nxc3 Nxc3 17. bxc3 a4 18. Ba2 Nd7 19. Rb1 b5 20. Kd2 f6 21. exf6 Nxf6 22. Rbe1 Rae8 23. Kc1 Bf5 24. Be5 Ne4 25. g4 Bg6 26. h4 h6 0-1 White decided to call it a day and perhaps some would say prematurely, but I think resignation is probably the strongest move in this position considering that white is virtually a piece down as that bishop buried on a2 will never again see the light of day. I must confess that I used to play this system for white, but the above move order means that he has to change plans. The KGD transpositional idea of f4 in the above line simply rebounds on white. I showed the above idea to GM Larry Chritiansen on WCN and he too was unable to find a solution for white if he goes 5.f4. So it would seem that I have now armed forum users with a lethal weapon against practitioners of GM John Emms recommended and popular repertoire. Happy hunting Top Postscript: Before I go, the discerning readers among you would have noticed that the exact line in question maybe reached via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order and in this particular case these moves canbe interchanged. I really do spoil you guys don't I, well I guess I'm just bad at keeping secrets. I wrote the above almost four years ago, which was not too well received by some in this thread, nevertheless I'm am quite pleased to report that John Emms in his 2008 1.e4 e5 Dangerous Weapons book acknowledges the effectiveness of this line for Black in a chapter entitled: Fighting the Pseudo King's Gambiteers Here is Emms conclusion at the end of that chapter: " It seems to me that 3...Bc5 followed by 4...0-0 is a promising way for Black to play, especially from a practical viewpoint, given that 5.f4 has been White's most popular response. In that case I think the plan of exf4 followed by a quick ...c6 and ...d5 assures Black of good counterplay. While it's true that variations with 5.Bg5 and 5.Nf3 are not quite as much fun, they don't really look that threatening to Black either. Earlier f2-f4 ideas are rare and some of the variations are very interesting, but this also looks okay for Black. And finally, answering [I suspect that should have been 'following' - Toppy] 3...Bc5 with 4...c6 is a worth-while alternative which in practice has discouraged White from playing f2-f4." End quote. Talk about deja vu, and I must say that its most satisfying to be vindicated in print by none other than the author of Attacking with 1.e4 himself, John Emms. Peace and Love, Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #26 - 02/14/05 at 13:41:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi, I noticed Gary Lane in his latest column over at www.chesscafe.com mentions the line we were looking at ... Thomas Aberlenc-Bjaarne Winkel Internet 2004 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Bc5 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d3 d6 5 f4 Ng4 6 f5 Nf2 A casual spectator might think White is in trouble, but it has all been seen before and Black must suffer in the long-term. 7 Qh5 It is always good news to threaten checkmate in the opening. 7...g6 Black is obliged to go on the defensive. Other moves have been tested to avoid mate: a) 7...Qd7 8 Be6! (the Englishman is happy to attack and this key move demonstrates that the black queen is not a good defender) 8...Qe7 9 Nd5 g6 (9...Qf8 is met by 10 Bxc8 which is hopeless for Black) 10 Qh6 Qf8 11 Bxc8 Nxh1 12 Bxb7 Bxg1 13 Bxa8 Kd7 14 Qxf8 Rxf8 15 Bh6 intending Kd2 to attack the pieces on the first rank, 1–0 J.Emms-A.Jackson, Port Erin 1999. b) 7...0–0 8 Bg5 Qe8 9 Nd5 Qc6 (9...Nxh1 runs into 10 Nf6+ gxf6 11 Bxf6 with a forced mate) 10 Ne7+ wins easily, D.Leo-S.Rahman, Asian Junior Championships, Singapore 2004. 8 Qh6 Nxh1 Well, the capture of the rook must be the ultimate test of this variation. Other moves: a) 8...Nd7 9 Qg7 (9 Bg5! looks like an instant knockout in view of 9...f6 10 fxg6 fxg5 11 Bf7+ Ke7 12 Nd5 mate) 9...Qf6 10 Bxf7+ Qxf7 11 Qxh8+ Nf8 12 Nf3 Nxh1 13 Ng5 led to a winning advantage, V.Kastner-V.Pekar, Lilie Litomysl 2003. b) 8...Kd7 9 Qg7 Nxh1 10 Qxf7+ Qe7 11 Be6+ Kd8 12 Qxe7+ Kxe7 13 Nd5+ Ke8 (13...Kd8 14 Bg5+ Ke8 15 Nxc7+ is great) 14 Bxc8 is better for White. c) 8...d5 9 Nxd5 (9 Bg5 also looks strong in view of 9...f6 10 Nxd5 fxg5 11 Qg7 Rf8 12 Nxc7+ and Black can resign) 9...Bf8 10 Qg5 Qxg5 11 Bxg5 Nxh1 12 Nxc7+ Kd7 13 Nxa8 h6 14 Bf6 Rh7 15 Bxe5 (or 15 fxg6 fxg6 16 Nf3 wins) 15...Nc6 16 Bb5 (16 Nf3 to activate the pieces is White’s best choice to speed up victory) 16...Bc5 17 Nh3 a6 18 Bxc6+ Kxc6 19 Nc7 gxf5 20 d4 Bb6 21 Nd5 fxe4 22 Ne7+ Kd7 23 Nxc8 Kxc8 24 Ke2 1–0 K.Kurylonek-P.Kaminska, Augustow 1996. I dont agree with what Gary said after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Qg7 he now gives 9... Nh1?? but I think we already looked at what I think is a much better move 9 ... Qf8! Maybe Gary will pop in shoot the line down in flames which is highly likely lol Regards


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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #25 - 11/19/04 at 12:42:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Come on chaps keep the fighting clean chess is only a game and no one died from it ... I think ... Yet Regards


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Dragonslayer Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 248 Location: Odense Joined: 06/13/04	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #24 - 11/19/04 at 10:54:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	To TopNotch, No, like your's I presume, English is not my first langauge. Your incessant proliferation of your English proficiency is getting a bit tiresome. I guess that's why you've taken to putting down other people's language skills. I would suggest you flaunt your vocabulary elsewhere. Still, I shall try to reply in English, if you prefer another language, let me know: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 Yes it is english, but in my mother tongue (and indeed in German and a few other languages) it would be 1.e4 e5 2.Sc3 Lc5. Not much to misunderstand or comprehend here. Unless Bc5 suddenly means "knight to f6" or Nc3 means "bishop to c4". Perhaps TopNotch should revert to descriptive notation so he avoids any embarrasing scenes of being misinterpreted in the future. I do try to be careful with move-orders when I put forward certain games as refuting lines that come form entirely different move-orders. So I reserve the right to question move-orders given in games which are put forward as absolute proof of the playability of positions reached later in the game (i.e. if Mitkov is such an expert in this line, how come he chose the inaccurate move-order 2...Bc5 ?). As for the King's Gambit, I (again) shall make it as succinct as possible: I would advice you to read the conclusion given in New In Chess Yearbook 72, regarding the viability of the line 5...Nf6 6.Bc4. The main problem in the Kieseritzky is not 5...Nf6 but the drawing lines after 5...d6. How sad that you, of all people, in desperate need of a cheap shot should resort to implying a deliberate attempt to conceal the connection between Dragonslayer (at least you can check MY record and verify that my handle is not pulled from thin air) and M.Jensen. I am sure everone else here has no problem remembering that they are the same person. Anyway if you were to read what I have writtten perhaps you could appreciate that from a theoretical point of view I prefer the bishop's gambit with 3.Bc4 or the Quaade gambit with 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3. From a practical perspective I am still making a killing off the Kieseritzky. See, I too can manage to produce a very long, polemical reply without any moves or concrete variations whatsoever, sure feels nice Now I just need to learn how to include scores of database games to confuse and dilute the issue. Here is one: 1.e4 e5 2.f4! Qh4+ 3.g3 d6 4.gxh4 1-0 q.e.d.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #23 - 11/17/04 at 23:54:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	For Mnb's sake 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Nge2! the exclam is primarily because I think this is the only way to fight for advantage here. In general I would recommend one study Mitkov's games because until recently he played this Bishop/Vienna Complex almost exclusively, and all in all very successfully. However in the exact position given above after 5.Nge2, I would suggest you play over Mirumian's games as he has close to a 100% score from that position with White. Mirumian's interpretation of the line is quite interesting and at the same time very dangerous for black, I highly recommend it. Top

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #22 - 11/17/04 at 22:47:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 5.Nge2 Mitkov won 2 games, lost 2 and drew 4. The KG - disapproved by TopNotch - scores better on that level. OK, statistics do not say too much, but to claim 5.Nge2! is a bit premature. For the sake of clarity: DragonSlayer, TopNotch and I all three agree, that Black the Bishop's game 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #21 - 11/17/04 at 22:28:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	In my opinion white can still fight for an Opening advantage against: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Nge2! (not 5.Bg5) The position after 5.Nge2 is quite interesting, the games of V. Mirumian and in particular N. Mitkov being particularly noteworthy for White. Mitkov without a doubt is one of the World's foremost specialist in these Bishops/Vienna complexes and his games in these lines are well worth careful study. The other line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Na5! is an efficient equaliser for black, and I have not found a convincing way to fight for an Opening advantage against it. Having said that, the resulting positions while balanced if black plays well, still contain enough fight to allow adequate winning chances for the enterprising player. Top

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #20 - 11/17/04 at 22:13:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	<Don't shoot the messenger if u don't like the message.> Only if the messenger twists the message. <some high level games> After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 o-o 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bg5 I have found only two games with one player rated ELO 2300+. Both were won by White. More or less related games were played and won by Beljavsky and Chmelniker (both with an early Re8) - against White players who were at least 200 ELO points down. So far TopNotch's proof from high level practice.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #19 - 11/17/04 at 22:08:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	It is even worse. After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 both Na5 and Bb4 are stronger than Bc5. Only 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 d6?! 5.f4 remains as a transposition and we are exactly at BigBen's initial post.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #18 - 11/17/04 at 22:07:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	The problem is that when I post stuff, some of u jump to conclusions rather than reading carefully and trying to understand and digest what was said. Firstly it is MNB who thinks the following move order is the more precise: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6. I on the otherhand am not sure I share this belief, nor do I wish to re-state the pros and cons of the two move orders at this time, namely 4...c6 vs 4....0-0. Those interested can check my source post for that. Regarding DragonSlayer, I wonder if English is his first language as he seems unable to comprehend it very well, so let me break it down further. The Vienna line u cite: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5? 3.f4 does not rearm Vienna practitioners as DS claims since this is not the most critical or popular line. The line that Vienna players need concern themselves with is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 and only now 3...Bc5! 4.d3 (4.f4?! is well met by 4..Nxe4!) 0-0! now if 4.f4 is well met by 4...exf4 and c6 as stated in my previous post. MNB claims and advantage with the alternative plan of 4.Nf3 and Bg5, I don't neccessarily agree with this assertion either, as some high level games have already shown that black is more than fine here as well. The babble that DragonSlayer was so quick to accuse me of was simply to emphasise that even though the main game I gave arose from the Bishops opening, the critical position reached was in fact the same. Both move orders have their pros and cons but whether u choose a Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order the fact remains that the line I gave cannot be avoided. Attempting to reach the ideal posotion via 1e4 e5 2.f4? has a plethora of other problems as well when one considers that the Kings Gambit is to put it mildly under a very thick cloud as DragonSlayer himself reported in NIC Yearbook#72 (At least I think it was him. ) . Funnily enough, if memory serves correctly, the same DragonSlayer sung a completely different tune on the KingsGambit thread. Glad to see that you have come to your senses and admitted the error of your ways. Well I think I said pretty much all I wanted to for now.....ohhh yeah, one last thing. Don't shoot the messenger if u don't like the message. Over n Out. Top PostScript: Just so there is no confusion, this particular Vienna/Bishops Opening/KGD line is very pleasant for black if met by the line I gave. If one must play the Vienna then I would recommend the 3.g3 line, as this is somewhat underrated by theory, easy to play, and contrary to what the books say complete equality is not so easy to achieve.

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Dragonslayer Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 248 Location: Odense Joined: 06/13/04	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #17 - 11/17/04 at 09:39:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. snipped 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly] Ok let's rearm the Vienna practitioners. 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.f4! transposes directly to the KG declined. This move-order is given is just about any good book on the Vienna, e.g. "The Complete Vienna" by Tseitling & Glazkov, Batsford 1995. The question of how to arrive in the tabiya position: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 without actually allowing ...exf4 is one of the great opening conundrums. The late Weaver W. Adams was a big expert on this position but never found the straight road to this "won" position. One really has to be careful with move-orders here, something TopNotch failed to do, giving two different openings and some babble about interchanging moves. From the Vienna, the position can be reached via 2.Nc3 Nf6 (or 2...Bc5?! 3.f4! shows why the moves cannot always be interchanged) 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nc6 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 But Black can frustrate us with 2...Nf6 3.Bc4 3...Nxe4; 2....Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 or indeed 2...Nf6! (clearlt the correct move here) 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 c6 as pointed out by MNb. From the Bishop's opening the position can be reached via: 2.Bc4 Nf6 (likewise, here 2...Bc5 is not the precise move-order) 3.d3 (3.Nc3 is the Vienna) Nc6 4.Nc3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3. Again Black can deny us this with 3...c6! or 3...Bc5 4.Nc3 c6 (transposing to the Vienna line mentioned by MNb) Sadly, I think the reason Weaver Adams never found the road is because there is none! In fact the only good road to the position is 2.f4! and crossing your fingers that Black will play 2...Bc5?!


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #16 - 11/16/04 at 21:01:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	As all too often our dear TopNotch is imprecise and incomplete. In that very same thread we already came to the conclusion that 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 o-o?! is answered with 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bg5! with good attacking chances for White. Therefore the correct move order is 4...c6! with the same idea - and the credit for this indeed goes to TN - 5.f4?! exf4 6.Bxf4 o-o! The difference is that the setup 5.Nf3 and 6.Bg5 is less strong. And if I may quote myself: < It seems wiser for Black, to play 4...c6 (in stead of d6) with the idea 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 d5 7.exd5 o-o as TopNotch once pointed out> Posted on: 11/08/04 at 21:31:11 in this thread. I have no comment on TN's reading abilities.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #15 - 11/16/04 at 20:03:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes its really me, your friendly neighbourhood Top just passing through. I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. What follows now is a copy of what I posted on the forum in another thread a few months ago that relates to the same topic. I trust it will prove enlightening. Quote: I noticed a few of you making reference to the line: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 as a favorable way to transpose to the Kings Gambit Declined for white. I am afraid this is no longer the case. While we are still on the topic of the Bishop's Opening, it gives me an excuse to show a line for black which is not considered by GM John Emms, in his recent and popular repertoire book 'Attacking with 1.e4'. In this book GM Emms recommends the Bishop's Opening, with the idea of using it to reach certain lines of the Kings Gambit declined, however the following obscure line in my opinion puts Emms proposed system out of business. Here is the key game, in which black a GM and reknowned Bishop's opening specialist himself, demolishes his unsuspecting opponent: [Event "Nordic Championships"] [Site "Bergen NOR"] [Date "2001.??.??"] [White "Miellet Bensan,Y"] [Black "Mitkov,N"] [Round "7"] [Result "0-1"] [WhiteElo "2243"] [BlackElo "2547"] [ECO "C25"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly] 5. f4?! [White does not care, he will stick to his predetermined mode of development come what may. Inflexibiilty in chess can be a fatal desease] 5...exf4 6. Bxf4 c6! [This is the second important idea, and the reason why black ommitted Nc6 earlier in favor of castles. Black makes ready to open up the centre quickly while the white king still resides there] 7. Bb3 [Anticipating the central advance, but it doesn't deter black in the least] d5! [Already black is better] 8. d4 Bb4 9. e5 Ne4 10. Qf3 Qh4+ 11. g3 Qg4 12. Qxg4 Bxg4 13. h3 Be6 14. Nge2 a5 15. a3 Bxc3+ 16. Nxc3 Nxc3 17. bxc3 a4 18. Ba2 Nd7 19. Rb1 b5 20. Kd2 f6 21. exf6 Nxf6 22. Rbe1 Rae8 23. Kc1 Bf5 24. Be5 Ne4 25. g4 Bg6 26. h4 h6 0-1 White decided to call it a day and perhaps some would say prematurely, but I think resignation is probably the strongest move in this position considering that white is virtually a piece down as that bishop buried on a2 will never again see the light of day. I must confess that I used to play this system for white, but the above move order means that he has to change plans. The KGD transpositional idea of f4 in the above line simply rebounds on white. I showed the above idea to GM Larry Chritiansen on WCN and he too was unable to find a solution for white if he goes 5.f4. So it would seem that I have now armed forum users with a lethal weapon against practitioners of GM John Emms recommended and popular repertoire. Happy hunting Top Postscript: Before I go, the discerning readers among you would have noticed that the exact line in question maybe reached via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order and in this particular case these moves canbe interchanged. I really do spoil you guys don't I, well I guess I'm just bad at keeping secrets.

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #14 - 11/13/04 at 21:44:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	8.fxg6 fxg6 / 18.o-o Bxc6 19.Nxc7+ Kd7 20.Nxa8 Nh3+ 21.gxh3 Qxa8 is only relatively better, I still prefer White after 22.Ng5 eg d5 23.exd5 Bxd5 24.Be3 Rf8 25.Rxf8+ Qxf8 26.a3 (prevents Qb4) and 27.Rf1. Usually a queen is stronger than a knight and a bishop, but here White's pieces are far more active than Black's. For the same reason 18...o-o-o is an improvement indeed: 19.Bxd7+ Rxd7 20.Rxf2 Rf7 21.Be3 a6 22.Raf1 and I still like White, but maybe not for objective reasons. If the result of our little discussion is that you know what is going on here, I am convinced you can net some points in these lines! I mean, White has several options and against each of them Black has to defend very carefully just to avoid an immediate onslaught ... The same holds hopefully true for me.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #13 - 11/12/04 at 18:47:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi MNb, I to play this line for white and discussing it with you is certainly helping 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.o-o!? what about 18...O-O-O 19.Bd7+ Rd7 20.Rf2 Rf7 or as an alternative 18...Bc6!? 19.Nc7+ Kd7 20.Na8 Nh3+ 21.gh3 Qa8 .... I have been looking at these lines tonight with a friend and we also put Shredder 8 and Deep Fritz 8 on ... what was interesting is thar Fritz gives white a + and Shredder thinks its about equal but I think we have found that white has no instant knock out. I guess depending at what level you play black may just play Ng4 not knowing what is to come, at least I have some idea now Regards


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #12 - 11/12/04 at 18:18:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 What about 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.o-o!? eg Nh3+ 19.gxh3 Bb6+ 20.Nxb6 Bxc6 21.Nxa8 Qe7 22.Ng5 and the attack continues? I do not see even a glimpse of a defense. As I play this system only as White, I really have no objection if 8.Qh6 c6 9.Bg5! wins too, but in the final position after 13.Be7 gxf5 I do not see more than a draw with 14.Bxf8 Nxf8 15.Nf6+ Ke7 16.Qg5 Ne6 as White has not enough pieces in the attack. It is hard to imagine a Black player entering this complications voluntarily though.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #11 - 11/11/04 at 12:28:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi MNb, in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 d5? your line above does look very good against 12...d5? so it looks like black has to rely on 12...Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! I missed this at first ...Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.Nc7+ Kd8 19.Kf2 Kc7 20.Ba8 Qa8 and black is not dead I am still not sure yet that black can survive in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 c6?! 9.Bg5! Qc7 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Bb5!! (11.Bh6 d5 looks totally unclear, well at least to me) ... Nd7 12.Nd5! Qb8 13.Be7! gf5 Regards


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #10 - 11/10/04 at 20:11:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	8...c6 9.fxg6 fxg6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 d5 13.exd5 Rf7 14.Qh6 (14.Qg8+ draws) Bf8? 15.Qe3 Nxh1 18.dx6 Nxc6 19.Bxf7+ with a big plus. But 14...b5 15.Nxb5 is less clear. 8...Kd7 9.Bxf7+ Nxh1 10.Nf3 Qf8 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Bd5+ Kd7 (Kb6!?) and White can hardly play on with 13.Ke2 Qxh6 14.Bxh6 gxf5 15.Na4 fxe4 16.Nxc5+ dxc5 17.dxe4 Ng3+ . So I still prefer 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 and after Nxh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Bg5 looks best indeed. Well, it is clear again that silicon analysis is not too reliable even in these tactical positions!

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #9 - 11/10/04 at 01:21:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting discovery, but it's mainly a headache(?) for people who want to transpose to a KG Declined via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening, since the KG proper: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 allows white to play 4.Nf3! as keeping the option of a possible Bb5 is one of the advantages of a KG move order, and with Nf3 in, 5/6...Ng4 is no longer a threat, as far as I can see at least.


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dearlv Guest	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #8 - 11/09/04 at 21:59:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	"Every KG-eer will sell his soul to reach the position after 6...Bg4 7.Na4 o-o 8.Nxc5 dxc5 9.f5. Dearlv, Thomas Johansson in The King's Gambit for the creative aggressor investivates 7...o-o on page 61. " funny. this is very comfortable for black but I'm really not going to get into it. good luck.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #7 - 11/09/04 at 21:34:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Every KG-eer will sell his soul to reach the position after 6...Bg4 7.Na4 o-o 8.Nxc5 dxc5 9.f5. Dearlv, Thomas Johansson in The King's Gambit for the creative aggressor investivates 7...o-o on page 61. I will take a closer look at the various 6.f5 analyses. Thanks Dragonslayer for pointing out the transposition. 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 4.Bc4 and now Nc6 5.Nf3?! (5.d3) Bg4! is better for Black, Zukertort-Schallopp, Frankfurt 1887. TJ in his book has dealt pretty well with the 5...Ng4 and 6...Ng4 deviations. White should not fear them.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Dragonslayer Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 248 Location: Odense Joined: 06/13/04	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #6 - 11/09/04 at 16:57:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: It has always amazed me, that this position can not be reached via the KG. Yes, it is true that after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 we cannot reach that line, but there is a very similar line in the KG after 3...d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 Ng4 or even 5...Ng4. These lines are seriously underrated/underexposed in KG books. And in fact the Vienna line in question CAN be reached from the KG, viz: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.d3 transposes directly to the line in question. This way White avoids the line 3.Nf3 d5, but has to be prepared for 3.Nc3 Bxg1 and of course he has the option to choose when to play Nf3.


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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #5 - 11/09/04 at 10:59:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi, I think it has been said before but never trust the stats in the databases 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!? Nxh1 10.Nd5 Qf8 (10...Kc6!? 11.Bg5 Qf8 12.Ne7+ Kb6 draw?) 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Qxf8 Rxf8 13.Ne7+ Kb5? this is a bad computer move I think 13...Kb6! and white only has a draw by repition as taking on c8 is much worse .. black placing his King on b5 and a5 is just asking for trouble ... I think this 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!? Nxh1 10.Nd5 line is less of a problem for black as it seems to be a quick draw. Still no easy white win Instead of 10.Nd5 maybe 10.Nf3 is a better try? although 10...Qf8 may lead to lines similar to above Regards


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Panda Guest	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #4 - 11/09/04 at 09:32:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	As to why g6 isn't mentioned, it's easy, black has 1½ points in eleven games with g6. Kd7 is an improvement only played once, but perhaps white should follow that game as 9.Bxf7 looks interesting, for example: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!? 9...Nxh1 [ 9...c6?! 10.Qg7 Kc7 11.Bg8+ Bd7 ( 11...Nd7 12.Qxh8 Nxh1 13.Nf3+-) 12.Qxh8 Lo Presti,R - Jimenez,J Villa Ballester 2002 Nxh1 13.Qxh7 ( 13.Nf3 Na6) 13...Bxg1 14.Bd2 and white probably has more than enough for the piece.] 10.Nd5 Bxg1 [ 10...Qf8 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Qxf8 Rxf8 13.Ne7+ Kb5 14.a4+ Ka6 15.Bc4+ b5 16.axb5+ Kb6 17.Bd2! Bd7 18.Bh6 Rd8 19.f6 Bxg1 20.Kd2 Bc5 21.Rxh1 a6 22.Nd5+! Kb7 23.b4!‚ axb5? 24.bxc5 bxc4 25.Rb1+] 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Bxc8 with nice compensation. It's not easy to refute ...Kd7 without giving a lot of variations and a lot of moves in each variation as seen after 10...Qf8, but white should probably be happy with the resulting mess imo.


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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #3 - 11/09/04 at 08:23:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi, dearlv I know all about the line you suggest and thanks but when I find what I think looks an obvious move like 7...g6 not mentioned in a book in a line that is supposed to be just bad for black I just want to know why and as for the Ruy Lopez I might return to it one day MNb thanks for your comments ... in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 c6?! 9.fg6 fg6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qh7 Qd7 12.Qg6+ Kd8 you suggest 13.Bh6 Re8 (13...Qe8 14.Qg5+ Kc7 15.Bf8 Qf8 16.Ke2! Nh1 17.Rf1 Qh8 18.Nf3 is also good) 14.Nh3 Nxh1 15.o-o-o does look very bad for black ... so backing up a bit instead of 11...Qd7? what about 11...Qf6!? 12.Nf3 d5 (12...Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! I missed this at first ...Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.Nc7+ Kd8 19.Kf2 Kc7 20.Ba8 Qa8 and black is not dead) 13.Qc7 (13.Bg5 Qf7) ...Nd7 14.Bg5 Bb6 15.Bf6 Bc7 16.Kf2 dc4 17.Bh4 cd3 18.cd3 Nc5 and although a pawn down black has plenty of play 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 (you suggest) 8.fg6 fg6 9.Qh6 9...c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qh7 Qf6 transposes to the above 9...Nh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Qg7 cxd5 12.Qxh8 Kd7 13.Qxh7+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Bg5+ Ke8 16.Bd5 and black seems fine after 16...Nc6 (or even 16...Bg1 17.Kd2 Bb6 maybe 16...Nf2 is playable) 17.Nf3 Nb4 (Nf2!? or Bg4!?) 18.Ke2 Nd5 19.ed5 e4 20.de4 (20.Rh1!? ef3 21.Kf3) Nf2 and black seems far from lost in these lines Maybe white can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fg6 fg6 9.Qh6 Nh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Bg5 Qg5 12.Qg5 cd5 13.Bd5 Nc6 14.Nf3 white does have an active Queen although after 14...Rf8 15.c3 or Qh6 it is unclear Maybe the next Vienna book will have to devote a little extra space to this line Regards


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dearlv Guest	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #2 - 11/08/04 at 21:41:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Na4 0-0! is good for black as far as I'm concerned. This line is recommended for white in many books on the Vienna, King's Gambit, and Bishop's Opening, and no one mentions 7...0-0 (except for ChessPublishing!) 7.h3 is pretty harmless too. Try the Ruy Lopez...


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Vienna, is this line so bad? Reply #1 - 11/08/04 at 21:31:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	It has always amazed me, that this position can not be reached via the KG. In line b) 9.fxg6 etc. the final position is good for White: 13.Bh6 Re8 14.Nh3 Nxh1 15.o-o-o with a strong, probably winning attack. But line a is nothing special for White. So my improvement is 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 a) 9...Kd7? 10.Qg7+ Kc6 11.a4 with a mating attack. b) 9...c6 transposes. c) 9...Nxh1 is critical, when my quick analysis runs 10.Nd5 c6 11.Qg7 (11.Bg5? Qxg5) cxd5 (Qh4+!?) 12.Qxh8 Kd7 13.Qxh7+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Bg5+ and 16.Bxd5 when Black's problems are not over yet. But I guess, that there are improvements in abundance. It seems wiser for Black, to play 4...c6 (in stead of d6) with the idea 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 d5 7.exd5 o-o as TopNotch once pointed out.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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BigBen Junior Member Offline Posts: 50 Location: UK Joined: 09/17/03	C27-C30: Vienna, is this line so bad? 11/08/04 at 15:54:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi, 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 (Na4 or Bg5) Ng4 ... Now I know in Gary Lanes book 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 and now both Qd7 and O-O are busted but what about 7...g6 which is not mentioned by Gary 8.Qh6 and now two moves for black a) 8...Kd7 9.Na4!?(I can only find a draw for white after say 9.Qg7 Qf8 10.Be6+ Kc6 11.Bd5+ Kd7! if black goes 11.Kb6 then 12.Na4+ leads to a win) ... Nh1 10.Nc5+ dc5 11.Nf3 f6 12.fg6 hg6 13.Qg6 Nc6 (13.Qe7!? Bh6!?) 14.Be3 Qe7 15.O-O-O Nd4 16.Rh1 b5 b)8...c6?! which may be for the brave 9.Bg5! (9.fg6 fg6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qh7 Qd7 12.Qg6+ Kd8 ) ... Qc7 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Bb5!! (11.Bh6 d5 looks totally unclear, well at least to me) ... Nd7 12.Nd5! Qb8 13.Be7! gf5 this looks grim for black but is it?
	« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 06:18:24 by Smyslov_Fan »

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